Posts for goofydylan8


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feos wrote:
Same here :(
If I had to be truthful I would say same here, but as I said in the submission text I was just hoping that since it was on the list of ideas that there would be an audience for it... I have have been mistaken
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Bag of Magic Food wrote:
Hah, I'd forgotten you could use the dynamite without hiding behind the block at all! :P So I liked seeing the improvements, but the parts you did the same just made me wonder what suggestions you tried that didn't pan out. What about your idea to jump over the first fish while still letting it swim over to the right far enough to let you back up? And was it really more efficient to grab the dynamite from the left, after the deep coin?
I still need to add in the jumping over the fish and I have a few jumps that I want to try to optimize but I was more concerned with finding the best path first since it is really easy to edit earlier portions and I have to add some entertainment value. The dynamite from the left I wasn't sure on, but am almost guaranteed is faster than the previous approach. I changed it because I only wanted to enter the grave once. In the grave I have to bring the snorkel taking up one slot. After leaving the key there are two slots left available for the brandy and the diamond meaning I would have to reenter the cave to get the dynamite if I stuck to the old plan.
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feos wrote:
Tip: there's a frames tag. Hover the mouse cursor. 01:14.52
Well that is convenient. I hadn't noticed that option before. Thanks.
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Here is my new WIP. It is far better than the previous attempt saving 4471 frames or 1 minute 14.52 seconds. This results in a final time of 13 minutes 40.03 seconds. This time is actually about 20 seconds faster than Boco's 0 coin run. I still need to add in entertainment to portions where Dizzy just has to wait, but it is much better than last time. Let me know if you have any other improvements. Thanks a ton Bag of Magic Food for your help already.
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Hello. Welcome to the world of TAS'ing. I am relatively new too so don't take all of this as gospel but here is what I can answer for you. First off, there is already a forum topic for NES Jurassic Park posted here. jlun2 currently is working on a run of this game as well, but hasn't posted a WIP for about 4 months. He is very active on the site so if you wanted to continue on this movie and posted in that thread I am sure he would help you if you had questions. Up to the point that you end the movie he is around 650 frames, about 11 seconds, ahead. Now for your other questions: You find glitches just through experimentation and trying to find ways to get the movie to end faster. Not every game has obvious glitches, and in many cases the glitches do not improve the movie. I also use fceux 2.1.6 and as it is not released they haven't released the documentation yet. It has an expected release any week now and when it is officially released the documentation will be included. There isn't really a tool that speeds up the process any faster than TAS Editor can. It really is about trying varying strategies until you find the fastest path. To find memory addresses you use Ram Search and Ram Watch listed under the tools header in fceux. How to use this portion of the program can be found here. That is a basic definition of luck manipulation, meaning that it is doing things slightly different to get more favorable results. A more thorough definition can be found here. There isn't a way to necessarily view the things that are off screen but you can keep track of these details through the ram watch and if you really want to try you can get into lua scripting which can help display pertinent information on screen. Good luck with TAS'ing and even though you are a little behind just keep trying. My first movie attempt ended up being about 15 minutes slower than a current run but I have gotten better.
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XTREMAL93: Is it possible to avoid injury on the second level? It seems that if you could have all three hearts going into the last level you could end the input around ten seconds earlier and just get hit by the last two obstacles you avoid.
DarkKobold wrote:
This is clearly some sort of pirate cart, seeing as it uses bugs bunny, without bugs bunny in the title. I personally feel that pirate carts (as opposed to the standard unlincensed tengen games) should be held to the standard of a hack, and not a normal game.
I agree that it should fall under the hack rule and as such I would have to vote no. It is apparently based off of a Russian animated series called Nu, pogodi! but they used Loony Toons sprites. As a side note this is the weirdest show I have seen. Twenty ten minute long episodes released from 1969 to 2006? How is a release schedule like that even possible.
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I will definitely need to up my route planning for all of this. Does that work in the same way for Treasure Island Dizzy? I use TAS Editor which (until 2.1.6 is released officially) does not support using the reset command and have never TAS'ed using the traditional methods but when I tried to do that it appeared it got to the point of first input 28 frames later. Not using any resets the first frame of the actual level appearing is 402, whereas with reset I can't get it to appear until 430. I really should learn to TAS the traditional way so I can test these things out.
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I don't know how I missed those topics. I am apparently terrible at searching the forum as this is not the first time I have missed a topic. Maybe these would be merged or if not I will just begin posting in the Quttro Adventure topic. I had actually never played the game before so the route was based off a Youtube run I saw online and just trying to optimize that one. I see in the Treasure Island topic there is a version that beats it in 14 minutes, but the link is dead. The current time can definitely be beaten by a lot with better route planning but I just wanted to see how long it would take me on this first run through. A positive is that other than the scenes with the fish there is 0 randomness in this game so even if there is 100% different route part of it can be reused. The problem with hitting the first bee was that I had to jump from the rock to hit him and once I was on the rock he was behind so forward progress had to stop. In a future version, since backtracking is required, it would probably be best to hit him while in motion. ***Edit*** Wow. I just tried this part again and hit the bee without moving having to stop. I am pretty sure there are a lot of improvements like this. For the bridge portion I tried (though I can try again if I redo the movie) and I could not get him lined up in a way so that he would chop the bridge but not fall in immediately if I was on the left side. Cycling through the other items is required so unless I somehow made an error in my test we would either need to replan the item order or have him chop from the right. Yeah. After reading this whole paragraph it is clear I need to do more thorough (essentially any) route planning before trying this run again as things like the pogo stick and the coin on the ship waste time. Here are things I know for a fact in relation to this paragraph: 1. I had initially jumped over the red fish but like you said found it impossible to get to the other side of the island without dying. If I jump over him first and then just wait to fall down out of screen I can probably save between 4 and 8 frames and I was planning on doing that for the second version. 2. I am not sure if you knew this but the red fish from 1. and the pufferfish that is used as an elevator only moves if you are on that screen so the only way to change that portion is to be on that particular screen. I most definitely need to check about the gold bag drop time and really just all of the pick-ups. I have to say my major excuse is that I had actually never played or seen this game before so this was more an exploratory learning how the game worked. When I first saw your response I got discouraged that I did a ton wrong but looking at it I think I am going to try to work on a new route and try again. Finally I did see the Quattro Adventure topic but I thought it wouldn't hurt to have its own topic. I don't know how I missed Boco's though. And I did see your vgmaps. I almost made the same mistake you made on the Quattro thread and started making my own and got half way through before realizing great ones already existed.
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Thanks. That is good enough for me. I actually found out by trying to play a billiards game that would never be accepted here so it really wasn't that imperative. I just figured that there most likely is a future publishable run that requires it. Thanks again.
Post subject: Treasure Island Dizzy
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I was looking for a new game to do and saw Treasure Island Dizzy on the list of ideas page so I thought I would give it a try. Here I finish a 100% version (collecting all 30 coins) in 14 minutes and 54.53 seconds. If anyone has any suggestions for improvements let me know. I need to reanalyze my picking up of items order as I feel like there might be a slight improvement there. There are also a couple "Secret Warp" zones in the game that take you to a different part of the level but I think they may actually slow the progression down as they are not the most obvious to get to but I need to test one of them. I also need to decide if this is the proper ending. This is in fact the end screen, but there are no credits that play. There is a way to prompt the credits to roll but it has nothing to do with the end of the game and is just hidden fairly early in the game. Overall I am really sort of surprised that this game was on the list of ideas. This is coming from a guy who enjoyed making the Uncanny X-Men run and I find this to be terribly boring. Maybe there is a nostalgia factor or a set of glitches I don't know of but this game really wasn't that good.
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I know it is sort of niche as far less people run FDS compared to Famicom and NES but is there any plans to include the option to eject and flip the FDS disk to the .tas file input? I know fceux has in itself has an option to eject and flip the disk but if it is chosen while using TAS Editor it progresses the movie a frame and accomplishes the goal, but on playback it acts as if the option wasn't selected.
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funnyhair wrote:
Bad Game Choice is a matter of opinion While some people think a game is awful, others might love it. if they run is well TASed, but it is a bad game choice, then it does not get published.
What? That doesn't make any sense. If bad game choice is a matter of opinion and some people will love it and others not, even if some can form a slight majority either way as you said, how can you definitively say that it is a bad game choice to the extent that it deserves to not be published?
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jlun2 wrote:
I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to these fellow members who think a TAS of every single game including ports/hacks/homebrews was a great idea. =P
If the choice is between: 1. Dropping all bad game choice rules, or 2. Leaving all rules intact then I would say I have to agree with you jlun2 that the rules should all stay. On the other hand if the choice is between: 1. Dropping the "uninteresting gameplay" portion of the bad game choice rules but leaving the other rules in tact, or 2. Leaving all rules intact then I would disagree and say that the rule change is necessary. When I read through the posts you linked to I read it as their sharing my opinion that the "uninteresting gameplay" bad game choice rule should be dropped and it was just shortened to the bad game choice rule. I do not believe I am incorrect in that assumption, but if I am I apologize. In the posts you linked to I didn't see anyone argue that separate ports of the same game, games with non-endings, autoscrollers or hacks deserve to be posted. Maybe I am being skewed by my own opinions on the matter but I just assumed they were agreeing with the uninteresting game rule but I could be wrong.
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jlun2 wrote:
Ok, seriously No. I fail to see how stuff like 5+ different versions of SMB here published along with a million hacks of nearly the same game would "help" the site in anyway. Edit: Hey, lets publish games like Desert-bus, or Game & Watch, where it never really ends, so instead of ending it, we give it arbitrary goals to decide when it should end. Also, lets publish movies of every single autoscrolling space-shooter, since someone MUST have played them somewhere. Edit 2: I could write a game called "DarkKobold jlun2 winz thiz TAS" and try and get it published.
No. That is not what anyone here is trying to say. We are saying get rid of the "Bad game choice due to uninteresting gameplay" rule. You are arguing against getting rid of any "Bad game choice" rule. There are other rules about submitting ports of the same game that would prevent the SMB situation. There is also a rule about the fact that for hacks the game and the movie must be worthwhile for publishing so the tons of hacks situation also wouldn't happen. There are also a rule about "games without goals" so that the games that never end would also be rejected. There are also rules about the autoscroller fixed gameplay games. I feel you are completely not understanding the goal of this discussion. We are saying the "Bad game choice due to uninteresting gameplay" rule is incorrect. Not that there are other legitimate reasons to reject movies. I said in the first post that I agreed with the rule choice on all of the other "Bad game choice" rules page. You apparently chose to ignore that portion of the argument. EDIT: This is almost exactly the definition of the phrase Straw Man argument.
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ThatGugaWhoPlay: Thanks for the temp encode. XTREMAL93: As AnS said TAS Editor really makes it easier to optimize, but in addition to that it is just to retry every jump and enemy a couple different ways to find the quickest way and watching RAM addresses like velocity to minimize losses. Warepire: Yeah, sorry about that. As I said in the submission text I recorded this without any show-off aspects because I really just wanted to see if I could beat the submitted film. When I finally decided I would submit I tried to go back through and doing the extra actions caused the cut-scenes and level transitions to be longer. feos: There is indeed vertical and horizontal acceleration (excluding when running left. For some reason running left the acceleration process is bypassed and you also don't slow down running up slopes. They apparently forgot the fact that there are levels where you move left and didn't code it in properly). The weird placement on the elevator is because the elevators don't begin to move down until you stop on the platform. The extra distance is because it saves time to get the elevator to move at the fastest possible frame but due to the deceleration you slide and end up a little further out. It ends up being faster to have to run a couple extra pixels for the frames gained. Looking back there may be a few situations where frames could be saved if I had jumped off of platforms instead of running off. Maximum x-velocity is achieved both during all frames in the air and when you have achieved full speed at running so if the goal is moving right then either running off or jumping off are equal speed. The situations where time could be saved are where the goal is to get to the bottom of the screen faster or if forward momentum has to be halted due to walls or other obstacles. There are not many situations where it has a chance to and it wouldn't save more than 2 frames on the jumps, so I am not sure if it is worth fixing all of the desynchs that would result. I would like to hear your opinion about what you think I should do here. I actually do start walking a bit before the electric walls so speed is actually taken care of. Most of the startup acceleration time is going from the 0 x-speed to actual movement so unless I did something wrong I believe they are currently optimized.
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DarkKobold wrote:
Uh, I still don't believe either BttF or X-men were errors. There is no guarantee the ungrue would cause them to be published.
From the perspective that the rule is wrong, aka my perspective, then BttF not being published is an error. But once again I see why you don't believe so and understand that it is extremely unlikely to change.
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DarkKobold wrote:
So far, it hasn't gained much traction here, other than one sarcastic comment.
I could see why people would want this approach as it would be a quick fix but I really would prefer the rule change completely over this idea. The UnGrue 2012 could certainly help bring back the obvious sort of controversial movies and would satisfy things for a while. On the other hand a rule change would fix the situation for those movies plus alleviate the error in the future. If there was a rule change all movies that would could be potential candidates for UnGrue 2012 could be potentially published in the future but it would give submitters a chance to make slight improvements to rejected films and have a very good chance of being published. This would allow older movies the chance to be published, making people who want to include more movies happy, and it would force either frame improvements or stylistic changes which would make those who didn't want the movies in the first place to accept the change a little by having the movies be slightly better than they were before. The problem with this approach is that it forces improvements on these movies where there may not be any. I am not sure how to adjust around this flaw other than there are very few if any movies that are entirely frame perfect. It would also set it up so that there wouldn't need to be a UnGrue 2013. EDIT And I understand that the chances of any of this happening is very slim which is why I am looking at movies to improve rather than start new NES runs so I guess the rule is working in forcing me to expand my goals to work harder.
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DarkKobold: I was just using the quote as it sounded pertinent. And let us look at X-Men run. The mechanics were simple but broke the game almost entirely as well as it was not supposed to be able to beat the game without gathering the keys and it was only through breaking the game logic that they game could be won without accomplishing said goals. There was route planning otherwise you would not have survived or the run would have been slower. Other people seem to disagree that there were no technical value present for the run, mainly complaining that there was little entertainment value, though some did say they were entertained. For that matter you stated that your vote for the run was a yes once you discovered the aspect of having a second character and killing him off was necessary for the fastest run. Now I know judgment is supposed to for the good of all, and that there is currently in place a legitimate reason to not publish the movie as it has "uninteresting gameplay", but how can you claim that there is neither technical or entertaining value for a TAS if you yourself would have voted yes for it? This is my point and the reason I brought up the movie. I am not trying to whine my movie didn't get published. I have submitted movies because I enjoy beating the games completely because I am not good at real time video games but enjoy them as an art and like seeing them completed as fast as possible. It feels like this an entirely subjective rule that does nothing but prevents the publishing of fine runs. Kirkq: This is essentially what I would have said. The problem is not identifying quality runs from an entertainment or technical perspective. The problem in my mind is that there is too much weight put on what individuals to be the "entertainment" portion which is much more subjective. Also, I was not trying to say Lagoon is a bad game, I have never played it and have no opinion. It was just the closest comparison I could find to a Back to the Future 2 & 3 style run.
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CoolKirby wrote:
How unentertaining does a movie have to be before you think it should be rejected? What if there was a game that had terrible graphics and music and a character with a limited moveset that moved at 12 pixels per second, and a TAS was made that was technically amazing but not entertaining at all (because of the game)?
I would actually say yes, that 12 pixel per second poor graphics, but from a TAS'ing standpoint amazing run should be accepted as long as it doesn't break any of the other submission rules. It will not have the universal appeal that some games have but it would be entertaining to some and would be an another example of TAS'ing excellence on the site. There are people who purchased that game, played through it struggling and would greatly enjoy watching it be brutally destroyed. And as I stated in the original post there are movie ratings for a reason so that people can gauge how entertaining each movie is. I am sure there are some people who like watching movies simply for the high technical rating and ignore the "entertainment" value. In addition to that what games that have been rejected for having uninteresting game play meet anywhere near that description? There are different rules for rejection and specific rules about hacks that would take care of 99.9% of games that would be that unappealing. Back to the Future 2 & 3 was not rejected for bad graphics, music and its character moved far more than 12 pixels per second. It was rejected people thought it was a little too boring. Hell, I love Back to the Future movies and I would add in a perfectly made hour long TAS to a marathon of the movies in a heartbeat.
DarkKobold wrote:
There has been talk of opening the site to all runs, and reserving the "standard publication" for only the best runs. However, this site is run by volunteers, with real jobs and life responsibilities. Overhauling the entire site is not a trivial task.
I understand that would be a major undertaking and that is why I am not recommending that. I am simply recommending what was already suggested and allowing more runs to be allowed to be published if they meet TAS qualities. I feel this won't lead to a watering down of the site due to the rating system. I feel the rating system says "This is the best that this game can be beaten, but compared to other movies on this site it may not have as much universal appeal." The other rules listed for bad game choice are diverse enough that the site won't suffer because terrible hacks and fixed length, rhythm and games for children can still be denied based on other rules. My ideal would be that the uninteresting game play rule is removed, keeping the other bad game choice rules and then find a way to encourage more people to rate movies so that there could be more clear tiers of movies. In summation to quote the publication (yes published on this site) for what many consider to be the worst NES game ever Swordless Link's NES Action 52 "The Cheetahmen" "Even the worst video games ever made can make up for a good TAS."
Post subject: Re: Bad Game Choice (Long Rant)
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AnS wrote:
This is indeed a problem that should be solved by trying to expand the gateway to other platforms, and not by endorsing NES even more (by accepting bad games from this platform). Your suggestion won't help to solve the problem in long term.
That is a valid point. Emphasis does need to be on expanding the quality of other emulators so there won't be as much reliance on NES in the future, especially when systems like Gameboy have equally simplistic control schemes. I mainly put that portion in as it was my thought process to discovering this problem. I had been looking for new NES games to TAS until I was fully ready for a larger one but it seemed all were considered "bad game choices." So while changing the rule won't necessarily fix that issue it will address the other problems I have listed that were 95% of my argument and is what I was hoping to discuss here.
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jlun2 wrote:
Well, this run is optimized, but there's no point in TASing it. There's no competition too; it's fixed length, so you can't "improve" it speedwise. It's an example of a bad game choice. So yes, bad game choice is a valid reason.
Bad game choice for fixed length gameplay and bad game choice for uninteresting gameplay are two separate beasts. I seem to be prone to picking games that are considered bad game choice so I created a topic to discuss the validity of the rule. Warning: My first post in the topic is a long essay/rant on the topic so there is a bit to read through. I really want to hear the communities opinion though.
Post subject: Bad Game Choice (Long Rant)
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After being on this site for a while I feel there needs to be a discussion about the qualifier "Bad Game Choice" when deciding whether or not to approve a movie for publication. We are quickly approaching the stage where, under the current rules, there will be no more publishable NES TAS'es that are not improvements to currently published runs. With NES being a gateway for most people into the world of TAS'ing this is a problem. The current rules state that a movie may be rejected due to various "Bad Game Choice" rules, many of which I agree with, but the one I am arguing is uninteresting game play. The reasons I feel this rule should be looked into is as follows: * As each submission is judged by a single judge and not by a committee of judges or by vote count what may be officially classified as "uninteresting" one day may not be the same tomorrow. * What one finds to be entertaining is not universal and thus limiting the published movies can prevent people from seeing movies that are entertaining to them. * As there is is a rating and star system in place on this website the need to be exclusive is unnecessary. Being more inclusive would allow for more games to be completed and the ratings will dictate what people consider to be the most entertaining videos on the site. An example would be comparing GlitchMan's NES Back to the Future 2 & 3 that was rejected in May of last year with OmnipotentEntity's SNES Lagoon that was approved in January of 2005. I will be the first to admit that both of these games are long and not the most interesting things in the world. But, they were both TAS'ed extremely well. In addition, in both cases 50+% votes were yes (50% for Back to the Future 2 & 3 and 57% for Lagoon). Similarly only 16% voted no for Back to the Future 2 & 3 whereas 28% voted no for Lagoon. Now, if you look through the discussion pages for these submissions they both followed the trend that while at least half of voters agreed it should be published they all had their complaints about the entertainment value, length and repetitiveness. Yet with these complaints both Lagoon and Back to the Future have been viewed, on YouTube since it is impossible to gauge those who viewed it on emulator, hundreds of times (414 for Lagoon and 300+ for every segment of the Back to the Future run). While 400 may be small compared to the views of the new Super Mario Bros submission it is still substantial enough that those viewers should not be ignored. The similarities between these two submission and the fact that one was rejected while the other accepted make clear the arguments I was making before. First, hundreds of people spent over an hour of their life on these game so to say that they are uninteresting would be facetious as they are clearly interesting to some people. Second it exemplifies the subjectivity of the judges. It shows that between different judges there are different standards for what should be accepted and what should be denied as these are similar movies. With that, even if a list of bad game choices was made it would be possible to change over time as the fact that this site is now 8 years old make it impossible to have the same subjective standards. Bisqwit, while still present on the site, is no longer a judge and the rules he used to judge then have evolved to now. Finally the movie proves my third point that we should just put more emphasis on getting people to rate movies and let that dictate the entertainment level. Lagoon currently has a rating of 4.1 which places it at 926 out of 933 (928 if you consider 2 of the movies are lower due to having no rating yet). That means for people who become addicted and want to watch through 925 movies first they can still encounter this movie, or if they only want to look at RPG games it is one of 105, yet it is by far not the first movie that is shown to new visitors of the site. Now for a more recent and completely biased example. My Uncanny X-Men run was recently rejected. I completely agree with the judge and the voters that it is a simply horrendous game, backed up by the fact that I discovered it through AVGN's review. At the same time though people thought it looked technically sound and got a 56% yes overall, which while not great is still majority. When DarkKobold claimed the run for judging he said that it would be a hard decision because of the conflict of bad game choice. So my question is this: Why not remove the uninteresting bad game choice conflict, focusing on quality of the run and allow the ratings to dictate entertainment value?
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Looking into this game more and I am now guaranteed that this movie can be improved upon by right around 35 seconds simply through better optimization which is why I believe that this movie cannot be published in its current version.
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As a proof of what other people are saying here is a quick and dirty redoing of the first portion up to a little less than 36 seconds and so far I have saved 36 frames. I would say you should cancel the movie and work to improve it because as jlun2 said if this gets published I will come out with an improvement within a week. Edit: Not related to this movie but I think it is awesome that TAS Editor has a rerecord count now so my movies don't have to have 0, so whoever added that in thank you.
Post subject: Updated Submission File
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feos wrote:
Please watch this video. Looks like there is a timesaver for mines section. You can jump over the wall. http://liop.ucoz.ru/load/nes_terminator_2_judgment_day_u_rus/1-1-0-126
Huh. Well I'll be damned. Here is an updated file with this improvement included if someone could update it. It ended up saving 65 frames or a little over a second. I am surprised by this because it is the only place I can find that it works or would even be helpful and in addition to that in all of the speeruns, walkthrough videos and written guides no one mentions it. It is strange that a random Russian run of it that is far from the fastest run through of the game online is the only one that has the strategy. Thanks
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