Post by Patashu

Posted: 9/12/2013 3:17 PM

Post subject: Movies that should be removed from obsoletion chains

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BigBoct

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[950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial_soup in 1:18:58.78 is the first one to come to mind. All of the future movies in the obsoletion chain use either the wrong warp glitch or arbitrary code execution. The one I linked does neither, and it's an absolutely fantastic watch for it. Completely different from all of the future ones. Hell, the very next one in the chain ([1700] SGB Pokémon: Red Version "warp glitch" by p4wn3r in 41:02.38) notes that it does things completely differently from the first one and that the first one is worth checking out.

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Posted: 9/16/2013 7:32 PM

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Denial140

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I'd have to agree with this, but linked movie is very sub-optimal. Despite this, I think that it should be done, and added as a new category. This run plays the "full game" e.g. skips warping to the credits, whereas the next one does not. They are completely different runs with completely different categories, so IMO they should NOT be in the same category.

Current TAS: [SNES] Jelly Boy [NES] Street Fighter 2010

Posted: 9/16/2013 8:01 PM

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jlun2

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thelegendarymudkip wrote:

I'd have to agree with this, but linked movie is very sub-optimal. Despite this, I think that it should be done, and added as a new category. This run plays the "full game" e.g. skips warping to the credits, whereas the next one does not. They are completely different runs with completely different categories, so IMO they should NOT be in the same category.

Well, imo, I think a glitchless TAS of Kanto should use Firered/Leafgreen, since the original versions have too many glitches to really warrant it begin "gltichless". For example, all moves there, even the ones that supposedly never miss, can miss in Blue/Red.

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 9/16/2013 8:46 PM

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Denial140

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Well, imo, I think a glitchless TAS of Kanto should use Firered/Leafgreen, since the original versions have too many glitches to really warrant it begin "gltichless". For example, all moves there, even the ones that supposedly never miss, can miss in Blue/Red.

The difference is that I'm not suggesting glitchless, I think off skipping to the credits as a game breaking glitch, so the lack of skipping to the credits but skipping brock is a different category completely, even though it isn't glitchless and isn't possible in firered/leafgreen.

Current TAS: [SNES] Jelly Boy [NES] Street Fighter 2010

Posted: 9/17/2013 1:59 AM

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jlun2

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Let's talk about a non-Pokemon movie: Ghost n Goblins. It even admits in the movie description that the game doesn't end in the first playthrough, so why does it only play through the game once?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 9/17/2013 11:50 AM

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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:03 PM

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Odongdong

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[450] SNES Chrono Trigger by hero_of_the_day in 4:21:11.83 can be revived and put in "any%" category.

Posted: 9/17/2013 2:14 PM

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feos

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Post #327944 On the matter: Moons allow us to publish runs that are considered GOOD by the audience and not care about the fact that it uses some strat that was also used in other branches. As long as the audience feels they are different enough, and good looking, they all need separate publications.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/17/2013 2:19 PM

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BigBoct

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Odongdong wrote:

[450] SNES Chrono Trigger by hero_of_the_day in 4:21:11.83 can be revived and put in "any%" category.

That run is extremely outdated. inichi did a testrun which beat that one by almost an hour.

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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:22 PM

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feos

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boct1584 wrote:

Odongdong wrote:
[450] SNES Chrono Trigger by hero_of_the_day in 4:21:11.83 can be revived and put in "any%" category.
That run is extremely outdated. inichi did a testrun which beat that one by almost an hour.

It was never submitted. And as long as this exact branch is unobsoleted, we can't kill it with just anything related. Otherwise it will be like, obsolete Battletoads 1p Warpless + 2p Warpless + 1p Warped: by 2p Warpless. It is not right and serves no goal actually.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/17/2013 2:24 PM

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BigBoct

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I had forgotten he never submitted that run. Wasn't it linked to in one of the movie descriptions for the glitched branch?

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Posted: 9/17/2013 2:28 PM

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feos

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That would not matter. Would we just kill the publication if it is outdated? No. Glitched submission was grabbed as an excuse to kill it. Then this "precedent" was grabbed to kill greatly optimized runs for some new reasons. See how much good such cases bring?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/17/2013 2:35 PM

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BigBoct

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Your point is well made. I was just asking a question.

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Posted: 9/18/2013 4:16 PM

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feos

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Okay, after a long conversation with adelikat, I was given approval to change some obsoletion chains if it will fit into the system of tiers. Now the question becomes not, whether a movie must be ubobsoleted, but rather, would it be accepted if it is submitted today? Explanation. To reduce the amount of arbitrary branches in the past, judges decided to obsolete runs by one another that were quite different. For example, SML2 any% was obsoleted by glitched. Now, if we imagine that the any% SML2 is submitted today, will it be rejected for suboptimality comparing to the current glitched? Because, when #4041: McBobX's Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog in 14:09.43 was submitted, it was rejected for not using the known tricks, which would lead to overall suboptimality. Similarly, if [450] SNES Chrono Trigger by hero_of_the_day in 4:21:11.83 will be submitted today, I think it will be rejected for failing to be up-to-date with the current level of TASing. Another reason to reject a movie is if its content is already present on the site in a better way. So if [2400] NES Cross Fire "Pacifist, No damage" by NhatNM in 05:56.36 will be submitted today, we will reject it for being too similar to [2409] NES Cross Fire by MESHUGGAH in 05:52.50 and being slower. The last reason is having unvaultable goal but failing to achieve Moons by being boring. Not sure if such movies were obsoleted in the past, since they were most likely rejected in the first place.

So if you really want some movie to be unobsoleted, let's examine if it is eligible for Moons as if it is submitted today, and if it is not sloppy (represents the current standards/face of the site).

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/18/2013 4:32 PM

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BigBoct

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To cite my initial example, I believe that [950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial_soup in 1:18:58.78 is still a very good movie by today's standards. (Lots of opinions follow because I am not a Pokémon TASer.) primordial#soup noted that he accomplished all of the luck manipulation using a 2-frame buffer for each instance of manipulating something, which is pretty damn good. I believe the only trick the movie doesn't include is the Brock skip.

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Posted: 9/18/2013 4:36 PM

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feos

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What about content overlap? Are those so different they need separate places in Moons? Prove they are.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/18/2013 6:22 PM

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BigBoct

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[2457] GB Pokémon: Blue Version "warp glitch" by MrWint in 28:07.28: Plays for 27 minutes and collects a single Gym Badge, then skips to the Hall of Fame scene via arbitrary code execution. Uses the Trainer-Fly glitch to catch Mew to enable the arbitrary code execution exploit. [950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial_soup in 1:18:58.78: Collects 7 badges out of 8 (reducible to 6 now), and plays a significantly greater amount of the game. Uses the Trainer-Fly glitch to catch Mew, but uses it as a battler instead of to enable arbitrary code execution. Skips things using the Glitch City glitch followed by the "jumping over a ledge when you get called out of Glitch City" glitch and warping out of the Safari Zone entrance via death by poison damage. I can elaborate further if you feel I need to.

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Posted: 9/18/2013 6:24 PM

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feos

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Sure, write all you wish so that no one then says "is that it, huh?"

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/18/2013 7:11 PM

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jlun2

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boct1584 wrote:

[2457] GB Pokémon: Blue Version "warp glitch" by MrWint in 28:07.28: Plays for 27 minutes and collects a single Gym Badge, then skips to the Hall of Fame scene via arbitrary code execution. Uses the Trainer-Fly glitch to catch Mew to enable the arbitrary code execution exploit. [950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial_soup in 1:18:58.78: Collects 7 badges out of 8 (reducible to 6 now), and plays a significantly greater amount of the game. Uses the Trainer-Fly glitch to catch Mew, but uses it as a battler instead of to enable arbitrary code execution. Skips things using the Glitch City glitch followed by the "jumping over a ledge when you get called out of Glitch City" glitch and warping out of the Safari Zone entrance via death by poison damage. I can elaborate further if you feel I need to.

How would you classify Primal's run? A "Low Gltich" run? :P

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 9/18/2013 7:40 PM

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BigBoct

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It's obviously not low-glitch, and I agree with your assertion that such runs are better suited for FireRed/LeafGreen. But as I've been asserting, I believe the wrong warp glitch/arbitrary code execution runs and runs like this one are distinct enough to warrant separate publication in the Moon tier. I think this run would have the tags "Heavy glitch abuse" and "Foregoes time-saving glitches" at the least. Whereas the current run I believe would be properly tagged "Heavy glitch abuse," "corrupts memory," and "executes arbitrary code."

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Posted: 9/18/2013 7:45 PM

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feos

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Yeah, we would need to differentiate them by using some branches. Not just by tags.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 9/18/2013 9:46 PM

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