Emulator used: BizHawk 1.5.2 (syncs on 1.5.3 as well)
Genre: Adventure
The published run's submission text was ridiculously hard on this game, but I don't think the person who made it did a bad job given the time he had to work on it. The game is complete, there aren't any game-breaking glitches, and it's not unfairly hard like Cheetahmen II. And it's not nearly as hard to TAS as they said it was either; Kirby's Adventure is more of a Nightmare (see what I did there?) to TAS than this.
7 frames were saved from the new trick, and 2 frames were saved from more accurate emulation (BizHawk 1.3.0's CPU timing fix). Since I wouldn't want anyone to think I sneakily improved a well-optimized run through emulation differences alone, I've recreated my run on BizHawk 1.2.0, the version used by the published run.
The new trick
When exiting a pit, instead of holding Up to float straight up after pressing B to stretch E.T.'s neck, you can hold Up + Left/Right instead and somehow save a few frames each time you do it. How many frames it saves (if any) each time seems to depend on how much invisible lag is reduced while rising out of the hole.
Improvements
2 frames saved from less startup lag
2 frames saved from using the new trick in the first pit
6 frames saved from using the new trick in the second pit (and apparently lag reduction)
1 frame lost due to a worse position at the end (but it's worth it; a better position would lose five more of the lag frames I saved)
Possible improvements?
My original motivation to start this two days ago was seeing a new SDA speedrun for this game while updating the SDARunsWithoutAPublishedTAS page. I noticed it used a much faster route than the published TAS, utilizing the teleport points spread out across the map, so I immediately decided to make a faster run using this route.
Optimizing the movement and using my new trick, I saved over a second from the published run. Unfortunately, teleporting even once messes up the FBI Agent's timer, and no matter what I did before warping back to the main area, I couldn't stop him from walking in during the final countdown and scaring away the mothership. I later found out that this behavior was already known by the previous authors and they couldn't find a solution either. Since there was no way to keep the time I had saved, I settled for improving the no-teleport route.
This is myoriginal run, but with additional input to manipulate the men as well as provide entertainment during the countdown. This beats the real-time run by 56 frames and the published TAS by 98 frames at the frame the mothership is visible. I don't expect timing to change for TASes just to make the mothership appear earlier, but if a way is ever found to use the teleports and still keep the Agent and Scientist away, this movie should be useful.
Thanks to
DSmon for his real-time speedrun, which motivated me to make both runs (even though the teleport route didn't work out)
adelikat and Cardboard for the previous run and all the helpful information in their submission text
My original motivation to start this two days ago was seeing a new SDA speedrun for this game on the home page while updating the SDARunsWithoutAPublishedTAS page. Both the author and the person doing the SDA Update thought it was such an accomplishment that his run was "faster" than the published TAS. I thought that wasn't fair to the previous authors; the old run used not only different timing but quite a different route. So I decided to make a TAS that was clearly faster than his "faster" speedrun.
I agree. I mean, it's people like them that makes messages like this:
Although the length of this movie is 21:50.6 when timed with our standard method, applying the timing method used by most Zelda speedrunners (until last hit on Ganon) would result in a final time of 18:46.85. It's important to note this so that there's no confusion about which runs are faster than the others.
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6439
Location: The land down under.
I had to have a little look at which is faster in RTA timing. DSMon is still faster by about 6 frames (30fps).
This is due to the clock of the game which is roughly 4 frames faster (30fps) on console.
And loading times are still faster on console in comparison to emulator.
I will still say Yes vote after stating this as it's emulator error not human error.
Link to video
I'm not marking frames on this one.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Thanks for doing those calculations, Spikestuff. I wasn't aware the emulator actually increased loading times compared to the console; hope Atari2600Hawk becomes more accurate in the future.
Thanks for doing those calculations, Spikestuff. I wasn't aware the emulator actually increased loading times compared to the console; hope Atari2600Hawk becomes more accurate in the future.
........
Well, that's another reason why real time records shouldn't compete with TASes, since if that SDA run were to be done real time on BizHawk, it'll probably be slower due to said emulation error. :o
Well, that's another reason why real time records shouldn't compete with TASes, since if that SDA run were to be done real time on BizHawk, it'll probably be slower due to said emulation error. :o
My standard example for this is Metroid Prime; it is much much faster on TAS than is theoretically possible on console, because Dolphin gets all the loading times wrong (which is a major problem for that game in particular, because loading periods are playable and the player can be damaged during that time).
It's almost never wise to compare speedruns and TASes, and I'm not only talking about comparing the times; both activities have things in common, but they have different goals and are really not made the same way...
There can be competition between speedrunners, competition between TASers, but I can't take "real" competition between TASing and speedrunning seriously.
As a TASer, comparing times with the unassisted world record can be useful for one thing: if you are slower with your TAS (after converting the time if it needs to), there's a problem. That's all ^^
Back, to this submission :P
Good job CoolKirby, looks like a nice improvement with that new trick.
Obviously I can't lie and say that I was entertained while watching the run; I'll have to vote no, that game belongs in the vault ^^.
This actually was entertaining to me. The green piece of crap moving around could keep my attention for 25 seconds. This run has nice optimization. It has a historical significance that many people will remember. It definitely should go in the vault though. As it is an improvement to an already existing run it should be accepted. If this were a random game that was just as boring but didn't have the significance or wasn't infamous I would vote meh and say it should be in the vault. But this one I am giving a yes vote. Nice optimization.
Projects:
Interested in TASing N64 Mario Golf.
GBA Mario Tennis: Power Tour is on hold.
Just stopping in to say that I made an error on part when I stated that my run was faster than the TAS. At that time I assumed that TAS were timed the same way as SDA and I only found out about the timing difference after I submitted my run to SDA. So I just wanted to apologize for any confusion that may of caused.
Also, good luck on the submission, CoolKirby.
DSmon, I appreciate you coming here to say that, and I apologize if I hurt you with anything I said in my submission text. I actually really liked your speedrun, and I'd give it a very good rating if SDA had such a system in place. I hope you liked watching my TAS too.
Yet again. MEH EXISTS! I cannot stress this enough
Yep, "meh" is the perfect word for a run like this. Not entertaining, but are attention spans really so short nowadays that people can get bored in 25 seconds?
are attention spans really so short nowadays that people can get bored in 25 seconds?
Assuming that one must "get bored" in order to find it not entertaining. Perhaps these people were never entertained to begin with.
Anyway, I voted no, because I did not find this movie entertaining. That being said, I like that someone improved this silly game and welcome its publication according to the rules.
Nice improvement. This is vault stuff, voted no for not being entertaining.
Yet again. MEH EXISTS! I cannot stress this enough
No = soft penis (Nothing in the run is entertaining)
Meh = somewhere between hard and soft (It was a decent watch)
Yes = hard penis (I instantly come w/o masturbating, run is very entertaining)
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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Spikestuff wrote:
TASeditor wrote:
Nice improvement. This is vault stuff, voted no for not being entertaining.
Yet again. MEH EXISTS! I cannot stress this enough
Why are you stressing incorrect voting behavior at all?
Meh doesn't mean vault. Meh means you were had a neutral opinion about the entertainment value of the movie. If you weren't entertained by the movie, no is the correct vote.
I think you are mistakenly interpreting voting as this:
No = don't publish
Meh = Vault
Yes = Moon
As opposed to:
No = not entertained
Meh = neutral
Yes = entertained
where judge determines vault eligibility, and vault vs moon based on the overall voting results and posts.
Vault is intended to be non-subjective, we (usually) don't need voters to decide that. We need voters for the subjective part, deciding if the movie is entertaining, thus the poll question.
Tech quality can result in a rejection. However, you should be having a DISCUSSION about this. (You can vote no too, but I would recommend discussing the situation before voting).
In summary:
Vote on entertainment value
Discuss tech issues
Judge will determine tier
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6439
Location: The land down under.
adelikat wrote:
where judge determines vault eligibility, and vault vs moon based on the overall voting results and posts.
Vault is intended to be non-subjective, we (usually) don't need voters to decide that. We need voters for the subjective part, deciding if the movie is entertaining, thus the poll question.
Isn't it something which screws with judging?
What makes me more annoyed is I always see a random No vote with no comment or mentioning about it. This still exists for this and Ucchan Nanchan and originally Cheetahmen (before votes and comments came piling in).
Just bringing up Ucchan Nanchan for a quick second. Something hopper wrote.
hopper wrote:
An N64 version of the electrified wire loop carnival game. That concept was clearly not going to be very entertaining, since it lacks none of the elements of a traditional game. There's barely anything to see, but lots of annoying voices to hear! Definitely a TAS to watch on mute. A definite No for entertainment.
This is what he has written... it isn't explained into further detail, it is only just left there without further explanation on why, the points are invalid for what he wrote... it basically calls out the game.
Then on another game with more yelling bisqwit.
Bisqwit wrote:
I liked the enthusiastic announcer voice.
Thank to him, I watched this entirely.
I will drop it. As I always do if I think I went in the wrong direction, it seems I am. So I will just allow the ball to go wherever it pleases, I won't chase it around forcing it to go places I will be a bystander and see it continue to roll for others to chase.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Nice improvement. This is vault stuff, voted no for not being entertaining.
Yet again. MEH EXISTS! I cannot stress this enough
Well, I voted No not because it was boring, but because it was just annoying to watch. Mind you, it's not as bad as front line, but I still didn't find watching the run something that I would look forward to do again.
If I voted meh, for me, it means the run was ok, not really outstanding, nor did it left much of an impact, I would watch it again, but if I had the choice between watching this and some other much more entertaining TAS, I'd watch that instead.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
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You should have waited 100 more publications for this to have 2600 twice. Voting No.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
