Topic by MrGrunz

Posted: 12/5/2010 2:29 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

we are on topic and we are not even bitching.

Posted: 12/5/2010 3:41 AM

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Runs better than the current one should be accepted. It doesn't matter how slight the improvements are, or that it can be improved further. If improved runs are accepted then we will eventually end up with the fastest run, but with many nice runs to enjoy along the way. Right now with MM, and for a long time with OoT the fastest TAS on this page was really old and kinda crap tbh. speedrunners without toolassist had better times. If a new TAS is better than an old TAS, then it makes sense to publish. Then when an even better third TAS is made, then that will make the 2nd TAS obsolete... and so on and so on. It makes no sense to be stuck with crap and wait for perfection without accepting improvements along the way.

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:09 AM

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Mitjitsu

He/Him

Banned User, Experienced player (532)

Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997

Synx wrote:

Runs better than the current one should be accepted. It doesn't matter how slight the improvements are, or that it can be improved further. If improved runs are accepted then we will eventually end up with the fastest run. Right now with MM, and for a long time with OoT the fastest TAS on this page was really old and kinda crap tbh. speedrunners without toolassist had better times.

Not that I agree on the tone that Mr Grunz has used in his last few posts, but I feel that what he's said in relation to you has pretty much been confirmed. On another note, in relation to OoT. The reason it took so long (4 years), was due to a steady stream of discoveries and emulator issues that took place during that period. I feel the current run we have now was worth waiting for. Frame whoring as I feel you were suggesting, played at best a minor impact. Yes, there is still further and known improvements, and because of that I doubt even the next 2-3 OoT improvements will take anywhere near as long. However, you are unlikely to see 5 min+ improvements ever again.

Posted: 12/5/2010 11:08 AM

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SwordlessLink

Active player (491)

Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682

Okay, I actually watched the run. I was definitely wrong to assume things about it before doing this. Here's what I think: Overall, the run was very good. It's a huge step up from his OoT run. If it got submitted and published here, I wouldn't really be angry like I was with the OoT one (the publishing of which can only be described as insulting). That said, I don't think it should be published. Here's why: 1. Grunz is working on a run that is better in every way. 2. He stole inputs from Grunz's movie (I think I even saw some from the parts of Grunz's m64 that I TASed (first cycle) in there). 3. The same reasons from the OoT fiasco regarding ROM choice. Because of this, I will vote no if he gets submitted here, but I urge Grunz to continue his run anyway. That said, if it did get published, then he would have every right to be demotivated, IMO.

Posted: 12/5/2010 11:57 AM

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Tompa

Any

Editor, Expert player (2142)

Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden

While, as p4wn3r said, there's no rule that disallows you from submitting a run someone is working on, it is still a very bad move to do something like that. Someone's working on a run for a long time, doing everything he can to make it good looking and being optimized. Then someone makes a run in half the time that is unoptimized and submits it. For the person that struggled very hard with the run, this will be a huge slap in his face and all the work he has done will feel like a big waste and the motivation will most likely drop. Also when the run clearly is copying all the tricks and everything from the run in the works and the people that actually found all the stuff, without giving any credits for it. This is exactly what he did with the Ocarina of Time run. Obviously, people will think that he found "everything" himself and will praise him from being awesome. When you know that someone else is working on the same run, why not help eachother out instead of both working seperatly? The runs won't be better if you work against eachother in secret. If you have something to someone that's doing a run, then simply do instead of being dumb.

Posted: 12/5/2010 12:55 PM

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neo_omegon

Player (159)

Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295

You don’t have to worry excessively. Many people know a lot of strategies are NOT from him. If he were submitted, I’ll vote no, though the run itself is really cool. About stealing inputs: Well, it seems to have been stolen in the earlier part, but the inputs of the latter part are not released. So he did it by himself at least in the latter part and there might be a few things you learn from his run. As long as TAS is a speedrun, perfectly optimized TAS will result in the same inputs. Apart from this case, if you make efforts enough but result in the same inputs, is it called to be a plagiarism? In the first place, the problem is originated from his first run, I think. If it was not optimal, why didn't you suggest his providing .m64 instead of submitting? It looked very rude to criticize while you suggested his submitting. That’s why I don’t basically point out missing TAS like SoM on nicovideo, though I mentioned several TASes there without their permission. I hope abeshi will communicate. It’s sad that his bad English may prevent him. I don’t mind being an interpreter though my English is also bad. According to his comments, he has to ready for the entrance examination so he won’t appear before next spring. Abeshi, if there is anything, please PM me.

Posted: 12/5/2010 1:06 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Mr. Pwnage wrote:

422,000 rerecords and a simple but obvious oversight like that is still in?

hmm, not sure if this is the true rerecord count? did you actually invent that count for your joke or did you read that somewhere? abeshi is good at hex editing, as you can see by looking at the way he hexed some stuff in. the optimization level is pretty low (he probably TASed this using a controller), so I'm sure he also edited the rerecord count to make it look better than it actually is. some people can be tricked with something like that, we all know this. one thing bothering me is: whenever he hexed some stuff in from that old m64 I posted in this thread he always always changed something useless, that doesn't affect links movement. for example taking the "Shield-button R" out, where I pressed it for 3 frames out of fun. this actually seems to me like he tried to hide the hexing :/ maybe I'm completely wrong here, but that's the way it looks to me.

Posted: 12/5/2010 2:58 PM

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Synx

Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496

Mitjitsu wrote:

Not that I agree on the tone that Mr Grunz has used in his last few posts, but I feel that what he's said in relation to you has pretty much been confirmed.

Flaming me doesn't help your argument. I am fine with being wrong, as long as you are able to point out where and why my reasoning is wrong. What you are saying here is that me being a fucking idiot has been confirmed without providing any counterarguments to my points. This indicates to me that you don't really have any arguments against my reasoning. Though you are clearly annoyed with my conclusion. If this run gets published on this site it would be made clear in the description that the input in the early part of the run and many of the strategies overall originates from a WIP by MrGrunz. The bottom line still remains that this run provides progress from what is currently published on this site and should therefore be embraced. Constructive critisism as provided by for example Swordless Link is always welcome. And further improvements, as being worked on by MrGrunz, would be totally awesome for us TAS-fans to enjoy, should they arrive. For now this run should get published so more people will see it and enjoy it. It might even increase interest for upcomming runs down the line

Posted: 12/5/2010 3:52 PM

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Hophoolio

Joined: 2/19/2010
Posts: 37

If he wants to publish it, then let him. I would still vote no. The reasons for voting no are obvious to me. In the end the run probably won't be published due to the japanese rom. How far into the tas are you at the moment Grunz? :D Can't wait to see the final product!

Posted: 12/5/2010 4:04 PM

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nfq

Player (93)

Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204

MrGrunz wrote:

you fucking idiot,

Looks funny when you say things like that when you have that happy smiley face avatar xD

neo_omegon wrote:

As long as TAS is a speedrun, perfectly optimized TAS will result in the same inputs. Apart from this case, if you make efforts enough but result in the same inputs, is it called to be a plagiarism?

It saves a lot of time to use someone elses perfected input too, instead of making a new one for no reason, so I don't think it should be a problem if he used MrGrunz's input, unless MrGrunz has something against it. abeshi should mention which parts are made by MrGrunz though (and if published it could say "abeshi's and MrGrunz's Majora's Mask TAS"). TASes are often done by using several peoples input, for example the recent 0-star SM64 TAS had input from 5 people.

MrGrunz wrote:

so I'm sure he also edited the rerecord count to make it look better than it actually is.

What would be the point of that though if he's not even planning to submit it here?

he always always changed something useless, that doesn't affect links movement. for example taking the "Shield-button R" out, where I pressed it for 3 frames out of fun.

Maybe he thought it was annoying. I also think the run is good enough to get published, for the same reason the OoT run was: Because it's like one Hour faster than the current best published movie. Grunz will probably not be finished with his run in several months so it could be published in the mean time. If this was submitted, it would get published if democracy is the deciding factor. It could be annoying for Grunz though if this was published, so I dunno.

Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times

Posted: 12/5/2010 4:28 PM

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abeshi

Former player

Joined: 3/15/2010
Posts: 1

Hi there, I will have to tell you some. First of all, I'm really sorry for giving annoyance. The video I made was very trifling rubbish, I think. It was also foolish that I had made this without much thought. I made it to upload to nicovideo for fun at all, and I referred to the greater part of existing video, it is fact. As a result, however, this became just unskilled thing. I was impolite to hurt every TASer's feelings and prides. I didn't have right to make TAS, but I have done due to my foolishness. Of course I have no intention to submit this, and I hope for forgetting me and my video. Sorry for my poor writing but I am a novice English learner.

Posted: 12/5/2010 4:36 PM

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nfq

Player (93)

Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204

abeshi wrote:

Of course I have no intention to submit this, and I hope for forgetting me and my video.

Oh, that's too bad, I think your TAS was awesome. I hope you would have submitted it.

Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times

Posted: 12/5/2010 5:38 PM

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TheFrigz

Joined: 2/9/2006
Posts: 124

In my opinion, abeshi, you don't need to apologize. Since when has producing a suboptimal TAS for fun been a crime?

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:26 PM

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Phallosvogel

Joined: 1/3/2006
Posts: 334

Question: How was he able to hex your input in, if it is on another version and a game formerly stated unhexable because of the desynchs and luck manipulation? /trollout

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:27 PM

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Acheron86

Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417

This blew up pretty quick. Abeshi: you did nothing wrong, though it would have been nice if you had credited Grunz somewhere for his input and strategies. Still, since you aren't submitting, you shouldn't feel bad. Synx: you keep saying "the best run should be published." I agree with that idea. However, in this case, the author of the TAS created a run using significant input from another author. It would be unfair for that run to be published without the permission of the author who produced the original input. In this case, Mr. Grunz should have the right to veto the publication of this run were it submitted, on account of the input he created. Otherwise, we would basically be approving of stolen input, which would mean nobody would ever share their input files during creation of a TAS, and this ultimately just makes our experience here less fun. I'm also surprised this was ever a debate. This run would not ever get published without Grunz' permission. Show me where stolen input has ever been permitted in publication, ever. Have a little faith in the site and the people on it, guys.

I will not use self-reference in my signature.

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:31 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Phallosvogel wrote:

Question: How was he able to hex your input in, if it is on another version and a game formerly stated unhexable because of the desynchs and luck manipulation? /trollout

trolls who have no idea about the stuff they are trolling are by far the best ones. as long as there is no text somewhere, small areas can always be hexed. you can't hex a long part. he hexed in some small sections ;)

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:55 PM
(Edited: 12/5/2010 7:01 PM)

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

abeshi wrote:

I didn't have right to make TAS, but I have done due to my foolishness.

I hope the bullshit attitudes in this thread didn't cause you to think this. Of course you have a right to make the TAS!

I made it to upload to nicovideo for fun at all

EXACTLY. It is funny how bent out of shape people are getting over a video made for fun, on another site.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 12/5/2010 6:57 PM

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Synx

Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 496

abeshi wrote:

Hi there, I will have to tell you some. First of all, I'm really sorry for giving annoyance. The video I made was very trifling rubbish, I think. It was also foolish that I had made this without much thought. I made it to upload to nicovideo for fun at all, and I referred to the greater part of existing video, it is fact. As a result, however, this became just unskilled thing. I was impolite to hurt every TASer's feelings and prides. I didn't have right to make TAS, but I have done due to my foolishness. Of course I have no intention to submit this, and I hope for forgetting me and my video. Sorry for my poor writing but I am a novice English learner.

Great work with the run abeshi : ) a lot of us enjoyed it!

Posted: 12/5/2010 9:12 PM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

ok, tub. next time you post a m64 of a TAS you are working on, I'll just download it and go on with it without telling you. then 3 months later I'll upload the TAS and don't tell anybody, that I used your inputs. if I had finished my run already, it would have been a completely different story. and no, trick discoveries is in no way comperable with input. and something else. maybe you can understand then, why I'm not happy about that TAS. I've been working on this TAS for 1,5 years. all my research was done for it. All that work on discovering the routes, strategies, tricks etc. can be seen in the end in this TAS and was supposed to pay off at this moment: The Moment I finish the TAS and let everybody see it now abeshi arrives, reads all my routes, watches all my trick and strategies videos, downloads my TAS and quickly puts a new TAS together. this way he gets this "pay off moment". the only reason why the MM TAS was supposed to be that enjoyable to watch was the fact, that we could see so much new stuff there. because of this fact I kept searching and searching every day to make it better and better. I doubt many people put so much work into one single game. and now abeshi's TAS has this awesomeness factor of having all those insane tricks for the first time in a full game TAS and my TAS is just going to be a more optimized version of something we've all seen many times already. if I wouldn't be working on the TAS myself, I'd be happy to have someone like abeshi finally do it, but this way it is a punch into my face. it's like everything was a huge waste of time. you guys won't understand any way, so I'll just stop right here ;) Edit: Since yesterday I'm working like a moron on the run again. Expect it to be finished until february.

Posted: 12/5/2010 9:42 PM

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Acheron86

Joined: 8/23/2008
Posts: 417

nfq: I suspected when I made my post that someone would point something like that out. Still, it seems you are okay with it, and a few seconds isn't the same as several chunks of a run. So for now I'll stand by my statement :-)

MrGrunz wrote:

my TAS is just going to be a more optimized version of something we've all seen many times already

fwiw, I've avoided watching most WIPs as well as abeshi's run for the sake of being pleasantly wow'd when your run comes out. As for those who chose to watch his run, well, it's really their loss, don't you think?

I will not use self-reference in my signature.

Posted: 12/6/2010 12:02 AM

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Sonikkustar

Skilled player (1308)

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 1354
Location: U.S.

Are you serious people? I leave for 2 days and another fucking fight breaks out? I just read this whole debate from start to finish and im going to tell you everything I want to say about it. This debate is unreasonably stupid. Its bad enough that you people are giving serious criticism on a random video, but you also managed to insult and probably scar the author in the process. Synx, Just because a TAS is better than the current published one doesnt meant that it should be submitted here. Have you ever considered that the author doesnt care about the site or doesnt even want his work being spread around? Grunz, Seriously. Stop being such an insensitinve racist prick. You just assumed that just because he finished this TAS, he would automatically submit it here. I also understand that he hexed a lot of your WIP to use in his run. However, you shouldnt act so childish and complain about it in every post you make. I cant believe you even call him a troll after he posted his apology. That was just plain rude. Swordless, Its nice to see that you arent as brutal to abeshi as before. But that doesnt give an excuse to give an entire synopsys on why you think this movie should be rejected. Youre basically acting like Grunz except not as childish. I know that this is annoying to here over and over again, but remember the purpose of this site and TASes as a whole as written by the Precursor himself: "Our runs may not be perfect (if that is even possible), but are still high quality and aim to be as entertaining as possible ." Obviously, looking at abeshi's post, He says that he created his run only for nicovideo. Nothing else. So you people should stop trying to ask and bribe him into submitting this. That is all.

Homepage SVN

Posted: 12/6/2010 1:16 AM

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MrGrunz

Experienced player (599)

Joined: 2/8/2009
Posts: 656

Sonikkustar wrote:

Grunz, Seriously. Stop being such an insensitinve racist prick. You just assumed that just because he finished this TAS, he would automatically submit it here. I also understand that he hexed a lot of your WIP to use in his run. However, you shouldnt act so childish and complain about it in every post you make. I cant believe you even call him a troll after he posted his apology. That was just plain rude.

I never called abeshi a troll. it's always the same, people manage to get the worst out of my posts possible :/ the troll was for phallosvogel, who even wrote "troll mode out" in his post. other than that, I gave serious criticismn. I said, the run is pretty well done with a few improvements left to be made. I also said, that I'd be happy about abeshi's run if I didn't work on my own one. I was in no way racist. all I did was explaining, why I am not really happy about the run. that's all, I explained my point of view, that I just saw an badly optimized version of my run and that the viewer without too much Majora's Mask experience doesn't realize a huge difference. thus all my work feels like a huge waste of time now. another thing I said is, that abeshi profits more of my work on the route, tricks etc. now than I do myself. this is debatable, but you know, all the work was done to pay off when I submit the TAS, now it won't really pay off anymore. I never assumed he'd submit it here, neither I would block a submission no matter what. all I said is, that he used my inputs without asking for permission and giving credit anywhere. that's not ok, he even apologized for that. neither did I ever say anything racist against abeshi. all my posts apart from the first one where about the run and how it effects my work now. get your facts right, sonikkustar. I know I'm german, but that doesn't make me racist. I hope this did have no effect on to your post about me ;)

Posted: 12/6/2010 9:45 AM

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SwordlessLink

Active player (491)

Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682

But that doesnt give an excuse to give an entire synopsys on why you think this movie should be rejected. Youre basically acting like Grunz except not as childish. What are you talking about? All I did was list the reasons that I don't think the run should be published. My opinion on this is just as valid as everyone else's (although the OoT fiasco would have you think otherwise). And LOL, I can't believe you actually called Grunz racist. Your entire argument went right out the window with that comment, IMO.

Posted: 12/7/2010 6:29 AM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1637)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Alright, time for some moderation. If you'd like to discuss the legalities of using someone else's input, that thread will can be continued here.. While I'm going to put the effort to attempt to split that conversation, any further post on that topic in this thead will be deleted. If you'd like to talk about the quality or tricks of abeshi's run, please continue. On the issue of the run being submitted, we will approach that issue if/when it comes. It appears the author is content, at the moment, with nicovideo.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 12/7/2010 10:19 PM

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petrie911

Joined: 7/16/2006
Posts: 635

Cutscene skip! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa5ND9HAbr4 That's pretty much a free 1:00 off the run. Bizarrely, every other song-learning scene gives you the song after you play it on the staff. Nor can you pause in any of them.