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Posted: 3/7/2010 8:14 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
It costs around 10 seconds or so to acquire and gives Lux 4 more guard. Guard is absolute garbage of a stat. The gear stats are not doubled by B Protect. Defend cuts damage in half on top of that. 1 inherent defense stat = 2 defense stats with B Protect. Defending then cuts damage to be dealt in half. Grabbing the Brown Coat would be about the same as forcing an extra 1-2 guard through leveling. After all the calculations are done, the Brown Coat lessens damage by literally 1-2 hit points, which is an extremely insignificant amount after Red Pison. At Red Pison it may have opened up one or two other options in the battle, but the time saved is not nearly enough to make up the ~10 seconds required to get and equip it. Guard is overrated. Power and Speed are the necessary stats to be concerned with.
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Posted: 3/16/2010 5:16 AM
(Edited: 4/8/2010 6:35 PM)
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Here is a new glitch I'm sure everyone will enjoy. =) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oKoFCiHE-E 831 frames per iteration, 6 frame window of precision. Nitrodon and I intend to complete the run under the previous route, while we could finish this run in literally a week with this new trick, the run looks quite unplanned if completed that way. After we complete the originally intended run, we may in the future run with this glitch, probably with the intention of obsoleting the run we create. That run would cap out levels at maybe level 18 at Gariso. Many less recovery items would be required, and the time saved would be about half an hour. About half would be saved in the present and about half in the past. We intend to finish our "non-glitched run", as without this trick it is nearly as optimal as possible. Having the run published glitchless on the site is a good thing in my opinion, as it makes the statement that we really can slaughter a game so restricted by an engine. Obsoleting it is fine by me, I just think it would be good for our current run to exist under the circumstances. We are mostly done, it would be wasteful to dispose of our progress. I hope this run will be generation one, and I hope a future run applying the glitch will be generation 2. (Planned from start to finish.) I hope everyone agrees with this decision.
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Posted: 3/16/2010 6:05 AM
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Derakon
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Man, what the crap? How's that glitch work? I think your decision to complete the glitchless run is entirely reasonable, and there's plenty of precedent for completing runs without using glitches that are discovered in the course of making the run.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Posted: 3/16/2010 2:52 PM
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Limne
Any
Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 153
Woah, I don't remember the tune up doing that! This is incredible! And it would mean so much less grinding too! What the hell just happened anyway? All I remember getting is +1 to something! One more reason why Lux is the character of choice I guess. Still, I agree that this run ought to be finished using it's current route. Not only because so much work has been put into it already, but also because in a game like this there's a lot of reward in seeing the original game engine eviscerated through intentional gameplay. This is a game that evokes a lot of frustration in those who have played it; seeing the game as they remember it destroyed has a certain cathartic element to it that seeing an unfamiliar bug exploited doesn't. Even if the current route is obsoleted, I'm sure that if the comments explain that there's an obsolete non-glitched run you'll still have plenty of fans opting to watch that instead. I know that for a few movies on this site I prefer the obsoleted runs anyway.
Posted: 3/16/2010 7:18 PM
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Nitrodon
Active player (286)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
The tune-up gives +30 HP and MP, and +20 power, guard, speed, and magic (the "power up by 1" text is most likely a bad translation). The event flag that prevents you from getting another tune-up is set by the first two bytes of the text after the tune-up. It turns out that wall collisions aren't checked between the text before the tune-up and after it, but you can still move. If you walk as fast as possible to the stairs, the text will load when you reach the next room. However, if you manage to make the room fade out while the window is opening (but before it's completely open), you can skip the text entirely, including the part which sets that event flag. After that, you can just walk downstairs and get a tune-up again, since the game doesn't think you've done that yet.
Posted: 3/17/2010 1:30 AM
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juef
He/Him
Player (154)
Joined: 1/29/2007
Posts: 208
Location: Québec, Canada
Incredible! Nice find, I hadn't thought such a glitch would have existed in this game. I agree with your decision; while runs with a big WTF factor are interesting, it is more satisfying to see it destroyed "with bare hands".
Posted: 3/17/2010 3:59 AM
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Limne
Any
Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 153
Just out of curiosity, if there was to be a glitched run, at what point would its route begin to fork from the current one? Would it be before killing all those horrible brains?
Posted: 3/17/2010 4:10 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
The run could restart from entering Pandam most likely, though the Red Pison fight probably has a fair amount of time to save with scripting if it were to be redone. We either have to recruit Lejes after losing magic, or get Lejes his magic back in Guanta. Doros, M Pison, Monmo, and Gariso are the fights of concern. Personally, I think Doros would be easier with Lejes, but then Lejes is possibly down a level. It would also be possible to kill off Lux instead of Lejes at the end of fights. - As Nitrodon has emphasized, Monmo takes much longer every level we lose on Lejes. He estimates that 1 point of magic is about 1.25 damage against Monmo per Fire 2. Previous average Fire 2 damage was 33 at (average 87 magic.) Monmo took 3 minutes like this. Level 23 = 87 magic Level 22 = 82 magic Level 21 = 77 magic Level 20 = 72 magic Level 19 = 68 magic (87-68)*1.25 = 23.75 damage lost. Monmo takes about 3 times longer or about 6 minutes longer than the original 3 minutes at level 19 Lejes. (87-72)*1.25 = 18.75 damage lost. Monmo takes about 2.3 times longer or about 4 minutes longer at level 20 Lejes. (87-77)*1.25 = 12.5 damage lost. Monmo takes about 1.6 times longer or about 2 minutes longer at level 21 Lejes. (87-82)*1.25 = 6.25 damage lost. Monmo takes about 1.2 times longer or about 40 seconds longer at level 21 Lejes. 1 S Brain takes about 20-25 seconds to kill. 1 trip to purchase 9 vacuums is about 40 seconds. According to my calculations, 18 S Brains (as opposed to 27) and no regular brain fight, puts us 62 experience short of level 20 after M Pison. (Level 20 Lux = (Assuming here) Level 21 Lejes) This saves about 4.4 minutes at S Brains over getting to level 22, and loses about 2 minutes at Monmo. In theory this also loses about 25 seconds for an extra fight, making it actually only save about 2 minutes. We could grab a couple recoveries at brains though, saving maybe 5 seconds. Alternatively, 14 S Brains and no Brains puts us just over level 19 after M Pison. (Level 19 Lux = Level 20 Lejes.) This saves about 6.2 minutes at S Brains and loses about 4 minutes at Monmo. It takes 11 S Brains to get us over level 18 after M Pison. It definitely isn't worth it. 23 S Brains puts us over level 21 after M Pison (for Level 22 Lejes). This saves about 1.8 minutes at S Brains and loses about 40 seconds at Monmo. - Level 22 Lejes is associated with 1.1 minutes of gain. Level 21 Lejes is associated with 2.0 minutes of gain. Does that extra level save about 55 seconds at the other bosses? Nah. Level 21 Lejes is associated with 2.0 minutes of gain. Level 20 Lejes is associated with 2.2 minutes of gain. Does that extra level save about 12 seconds at the other bosses? I think so. I believe that 18 S Brains and 2 Brains for a level 21 Lejes is optimal for a run utilizing the glitch. Level 19 Lux is reached after Serpent. This makes a recruited apprentice two levels weaker than the current run. (For Olvan this means worse gear.) So scratch 2 levels, scratch many of the recovery items, grab an extra exigate for the penultimate dungeon, and we save maybe 3 minutes in the present. Less grinding is a plus though. The glitch easily saves 15-20 minutes in the past.
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Posted: 3/20/2010 6:19 AM
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FionordeQuester
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Yo Kirkq, I want to do a legit speed run, so I came here to ask you a question. I couldn't find this information anywhere else, so I want to ask... Suppose I loaded a saved game and went out to fight 4 battles. Just one more and I'll be able to change the reaction of one of the apprentices. So I save my game, and reload it again. My question is, would I only need to fight one battle to get that changed reaction, or would I have to redo those four battles as soon as I turn off and reload my game?
Posted: 3/20/2010 6:25 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Observing 7E5120 and 7E5121 tells me that these are preserved on reset. I assume the emulator reset function is the same as power on/off. (You should pop open an emulator and familiarize yourself with the memory watch function.) Ideally a segmented run would be very conscious of these values, and also very conscious of upcoming enemy attack patterns perhaps as well.
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Posted: 3/20/2010 6:50 AM
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FionordeQuester
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Are you saying there might actually be a way for me to manipulate the RNG even in a legit run?
Posted: 3/20/2010 6:55 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
No. The RNG is at 7E006C and 7E006E. It is beyond your control. It is used to determine how to set such things as apprentice join values, apprentice locations, how often apprentice locations change, who is in Patrof. Once these things are set (randomly at certain points), they do not change until they 'expire' so to speak. You can observe what values these hold by testing from a save.
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Posted: 3/20/2010 7:09 AM
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FionordeQuester
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Hmm...I see. So, there are values that will never change even when I restart a change over and over again, like enemy attack patterns?
Posted: 3/22/2010 8:33 AM
(Edited: 4/8/2010 6:27 PM)
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
What does everyone think we should do for the tune-up in this run? I'd be interested to hear any perspectives on this, even if you have no familiarity with the game. The video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oKoFCiHE-E The details are as follows: This run only gets one tune-up under our chosen circumstances. If done optimally, we pause between the second and third step and skip the dialog. This in turn opens up the possibility to get a second tune-up. My question is essentially, "Under what limitations should the tune-up be acquired?" Should we..? 1: Walk through walls, skip dialog, create scenario for 2nd tune-up and neglect it. 2: Walk through walls, do not skip dialog, another tune-up not available. 3: Walk during cutscene, but not through walls. 4: Do not walk during cutscene. Personally I think 3 is the most well defined, but 2 is reasonable. "Does not walk through walls" is an easy definition for "non-glitched" instead of "Does not get/allow multiple tune-ups", but the fact that we walk during the cutscene still puts us in "able to walk through walls" status. I got a decent Foma fight today. We will probably test a couple other possibilities and then finalize it.
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Posted: 3/22/2010 10:15 AM
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Aqfaq
Editor, Expert player (2478)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Sega TASer of 2008 Lucky TAS of 2008
Kirkq wrote:
Should we..? 1: Walk through walls, skip dialog, create scenario for 2nd tune-up and neglect it. 2: Walk through walls, do not skip dialog, another tune-up not available. 3: Walk during cutscene, but not through walls. 4: Do not walk during cutscene.
All those are fine for me. It's just a stylistical choice. I'd probably pick #1 myself, because there is no clear line between being and not being able to get a second tune-up. You choose to get only one tune-up, so after that it does not matter if you also happen to create a situation that would allow getting another one.
Posted: 3/23/2010 2:35 AM
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Limne
Any
Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 153
Hunh, that's a tough choice... Well, as I understand it, you're avoiding getting multiple tune ups because it makes your chosen route look unoptimized, but I think that any one of those choices would be sufficient for sweeping the glitch under the rug. What's your status for glitches so far? Is it possible to walk away during other cutscenes? Have you been? At this point I guess I'd say that you should be consistent with the route so far.
Posted: 3/23/2010 2:50 AM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
We walk between cutscenes of 'Olvan recruited' and 'got Sky Rune', this is sort of expected by the game. We cannot walk through walls in that instance. We want to treat multiple tune-ups as a glitch that we will not be using, so what general limitations do we place on the scenario to limit the run to not get multiple tune-ups.
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Posted: 3/23/2010 9:14 PM
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juef
He/Him
Player (154)
Joined: 1/29/2007
Posts: 208
Location: Québec, Canada
I agree on 3 as well. I can't wait to see the final run!
Posted: 3/24/2010 2:17 AM
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Limne
Any
Joined: 2/24/2010
Posts: 153
Well, if you've been walking during cut scenes so far you might as well go with 3. It makes the best sense given the run's non-glitch status.
Posted: 3/26/2010 4:05 AM
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FionordeQuester
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
Are there are values that will never change even when I restart a change over and over again, like enemy attack patterns?
Posted: 3/26/2010 5:40 PM
Post subject: Glitchless Run
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Shyft-
Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 34
I agree totally on completing the glitchless run; what you have going is completely epic and awesome. I've been following that on YT and I'm looking forward to more parts. Is there an estimated completion timeframe at this point?
Posted: 3/28/2010 12:54 PM
(Edited: 4/8/2010 6:44 AM)
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Fionorde - Instead of answering one game mechanics question at a time, I'd rather take the time to make a page detailing everything we know eventually. Though I/we may not get around to that for a while. The enemy attack type pattern should be determined only by the start of the game and changes per previous atttack used. Shyft - The run is expected to be completed in the 1:50-1:55 range. I just solidified a pretty good Foma fight, but we're going to have to fight the RNG pretty heavily, and I'm going to need to perfect the walking script from Pharano to Ligena. Currently the script gets stuck on a bad iteration for far too long. I need to modify it with a break condition for that particular run if it has tried too many times, so that I will be able to run large numbers of iterations at a time. EDIT: Buffed RNG up to Ligena, Foma should be dead soon: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/991402492/To%20Ligena%204486.smv EDIT: I would estimate 2-3 months depending on Classes/Motivation/How badly the RNG decides to fight against us/etc.
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Posted: 3/28/2010 9:09 PM
Post subject: Completion Timeframe
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Shyft-
Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 34
Hey Kirk, thanks for the quick reply! Sorry, my fault for not clarifying, meant to ask for a timeframe on when you think you'll be done here in real time, not a timeframe on the total time of in-game completion. You thinking it might be take until the (northern hemisphere) summer to complete this? It sounds like it's a LOT of work but I'm glad you're doing it. I'm really looking forward to the completed product.
Posted: 4/24/2010 6:35 PM
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FionordeQuester
Joined: 3/20/2010
Posts: 126
How're you guys doing?
Posted: 4/28/2010 7:35 PM
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Kirkq
Player (210)
Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US
Progress will resume in about two weeks after I finish up finals. We will presumably be going with the Foma fight I charted. I started working on walking through Ligena sort of. A lot of people get in the way, so it is a bit of a hassle. Classes have definitely been keeping me busy though. This run will probably be finished about two months from now if all goes well.
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