Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
No feedback about my run? I feel a little bit sad. According to RTA speedrunner's video, Somaria Glitches in my 100% run are improvable. The directions when I used SomariaStaff were bad. New YBA, or YBA with poke sword, has been found. I tried it and successfully reproduced it. And I measured which YBA saved time most on my 100% route, though the results may be apparent without testing. Here are the results. Some of the results were gotten from just comparing my 100% TAS with Mr. Tompa's current published TAS, thanks. Classical YBA in mire (red potion): saved 1835 frames. New YBA in swamp (red potion): saved 2247 frames. Switch was pressed with SomariaStaff. Classical YBA on 1F in Ganon's Tower (green potion): saved 2312 frames. New YBA in desert (green potion): saved 4328 frames. Classical YBA from fairy room in Ganon's Tower (green potion): saved 6844 frames. I don't measure how many frames faster YBA in PoD is, because there is no way to access a bottle and a red potion at that time. Maybe, it would be a similar result with YBA in mire. Obtaining a bottle and a potion at that time is a detour on my 100% route. It might be slower. So, buying green potion x3 is the fastest, but the problem is if you once perform new YBA, graphic is always buggy, which might look bad and might make TASing difficult. The audience cannot know what is happening. EDIT: This route is obsoleted.
Skilled player (1737)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4979
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
Wait, glitched 100% in ~1 hour? Now I'm really curious how fast an optimized TAS will be. :o
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Although different rupee route and one different YBA promise saving time, I regret to say that time will not be so different. Different emulators count different lags. Rupee route that I think about is that: Flippers(500r)+chestGame(30r)=530r are covered by Tree's(80rx4) + Eastern Palace's box with EG(100r) + Sahasrahla's(50rx2) + 20r from an enemy just before the boss room in EasternPalace = 540r I'm not now going to start making a to-be-submitted run. If anyone wants a new run, please go ahead.
Joined: 2/28/2009
Posts: 99
neo_omegon, just wanted to offer support for your TASing efforts on this game, which has experienced unfortunate setbacks in full-game TASing efforts for the past few years. I and many others would be greatly excited to see an updated no-EG or 100% TAS incorporating all the new tech that has arisen since Tompa's old run.
MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
The Japanese version you can skip the title screen from startup, but the dialog text is slower. Those will all be discounted.
Joined: 7/31/2005
Posts: 128
Location: Virginia
Reviving to mention a cool patch that might inspire a Moons run or Youtube demonstration. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2879/ This adds L/R weapons changing, MMX-style, without needing a menu transition. I did a quick check and you can switch and use the new weapon on the same frame. It's just for the US version, though. Give it a try, because it's a frickin' blast!
Working on a mod of an old favorite in my spare time. PM for updates!
Experienced player (675)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1786
Location: Brasil
when using exploration glitch in dungeons,how do i find which rooms can be hopped back into? chaos made map for it http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1441.0
TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Player (13)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 506
I was watching a video of someone playing Dessyreqt's ALttP randomizer. At some point, the player uses the Fire Rod downwards, hits an enemy, and burns it... along with another enemy completely out of the way near the top of the screen! You can see this occurring here at 1:14:10. Link to video I'm assuming this glitch occurs in the normal game as well, and since I never saw this bug documented before, I wanted to do so here in case it would be a useful speedrunning tactic.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
The order of the dungeons after I bought potions in my 100% tas was that: Skull -> Swamp -> Ice -> MountainTower -> TurtleRock -> Mire(red potion) -> Desert -> Ganon's Tower(green potion x2). Now, in Ganon's Tower, one green potion is enough. If I change the order of the dungeons and if I buy a red potion in Kakariko Village just before Skull, then I can use YBAs in four dungeons. Like this: MountainTower -> Mire(red potion) -> Desert(green potion) -> (buy a red potion) Skull -> TurtleRock -> Swamp(red potion) -> Ice -> Ganon's Tower(green potion). EDIT: After Ice Palace, there is a shop near on my way. I forget it. I can buy a red potion there. So, the order of the dungeon might not have to be changed. Skull -> Swamp(red potion) -> Ice (buy a red potion) -> MountainTower -> TurtleRock -> Mire(red potion) -> Desert(green potion) -> Ganon's Tower(green potion).
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Today, I'll post four short SMVs. (Sorry for using a deprecated emulator. I've not bought a new PC, yet.) Left plus right are used in these tricks. First, faster Castle Escape (with EG). -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1238097026/Alttp-fasterCastleEscape.smv I was hinted by Mr. Tompa's published any% TAS, and tried this route of the castle escape. It is faster. Note: I should not take damage in order to get red rupees from the tree. By the way, as for rupee route, getting rupees from chest games in the forest (need 100 rupees at first) is faster than from trees, an Eastern Palace's box, Sahasrahla's house, and so on. And since the new Ganon's Tower's shortcut saves several arrows, manipulating the prize packs of the arrows, getting 100 rupees in the chest game in the village of outcasts and not obtaining 300 rupees in the village might be faster. Second, just before Agahnim battle, I succeeded in canceling the teleportation of Zelda without YBA. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1386604730/Alttp-withoutTeleportation.smv This is obviously faster. Third, faster Mountain Tower. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1926831863/Alttp-fasterMt.Tower.smv At the entrancehall, I used a trick. This is principally the same as the failure version of the new Ganon's Tower's shortcut, I think. This trick might be useful in other places. As for the shourtcut in Ganon's Tower, thanks to left plus right, conveyor is not necessary. Last, a funny way of getting Mirror Shield. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1860809095/Alttp-funnyGettingMirrorShield.smv You can obtain Big Keys many times, if you stop this movie in midstream and check the Big Box. Sadly, this is slower in the end, even though you get only one Big Key.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Sorry for a triple post, but I found a new strategy in Ganon's Tower for a 100%. Red mail can be obtained without YBA. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1801274742/Alttp-Ultimate-Ganon%27s-Tower.smv Just after I got a Big Key, Mirror had to be used because camera could not be fixed. (i.e. If you go to get a red mail directly without Mirror, you'll be stacked in a wall.) This route is apparently slower because Mirror is used twice, but in the end it is faster because shopping time is saved. (Note: Magic Power should be saved somewhere through a run.) edit: And this is a faster Grampa route with using the same trick. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/232237072/Alttp-fasterGrampa.smv
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Even faster Ganon's Tower to get the Big Key. Now, we can skip Ice Armos. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/82204983/Alttp-SkipIceArmos.smv
SeanCass
He/Him
Joined: 2/24/2015
Posts: 4
Location: striker's chesthair
Hi, I'm just a lowly washed up RTA runner of ALttP who has dabbled in the glitched categories. I can't offer much help or guidance other than pointing out a few helpful resources: 1) ALttP has a discord where you can talk to plenty of people far more educated with ALttP in a TAS environment than I am... and here's the invite: https://discord.gg/Jx5fuUp 2) SuperSKUJ has done tons of investigation into glitches and their implications, much of it is documented on his youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXlk2kGuRY1DDzrrUQXdfDQ I'm posting this per request of Tompa, who has been exceedingly busy and really just doesn't know what to say here as a reply. I do know he has stopped work on this game because he had trouble defining a ruleset for a TAS that isn't simply any% or 100% (more of like an "All Dungeons" run) but I'm sure himself and the rest of us on the discord would be happy to help you in your quest of creating a new TAS for this game. Hopefully we'll get to talk soon!
( ´◔‿ゝ◔`)
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thank you, SeanCass.
SeanCass wrote:
1) ALttP has a discord where you can talk to plenty of people far more educated with ALttP in a TAS environment than I am... and here's the invite: https://discord.gg/Jx5fuUp
I've not known discord. Well, I am not good at English. I might not join it near future, but thanks anyway.
SeanCass wrote:
2) SuperSKUJ has done tons of investigation into glitches and their implications, much of it is documented on his youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXlk2kGuRY1DDzrrUQXdfDQ
I've aleady known it, but thanks for informing me of it. I refered to a lot of his videos. He is awesome. I'm looking forward to his next work. Defining a ruleset may be a headache. Maybe, more of the members should be involved in discussion. But I personally think author can decide freely in the end. Now, PoD is accessible from Skull Woods. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/537906622/Alttp-PoD-from-SkullWoods.smv I'll use this route in my next 100% run. This is faster mainly because of Cane of Somaria (no pushing statue), YBA and Lvl.4 sword. (Note: Goriya room is slow. Using three Silver Arrows and then dashing is about 60 frames faster.)
HHS
Active player (285)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 356
Here is a small and most likely useless glitch I just found. If you throw a boomerang and then immediately use the hookshot, you'll overwrite the boomerang's original direction with the hookshot's slot index, which both use the variable 7E039D. With this you can make the boomerang go off screen instead of bouncing back as it normally does, and the location of the spark as it hits a wall will be affected as well. Some other random fun facts I've discovered: - It is possible to escape from a Devalant by tapping R. - The hookshot has the ability to take you to the lower floor, but this feature is not used. It is unclear what was meant to trigger this. - The upper and lower levels of a room may reside in one plane or two, controlled by 7E044A. When 01, each level uses its own plane, and when 02, they both share the same plane. There is also an unfinished third type of room, with 7E044A being 00. In this mode, jumping from a ledge or a pool ladder (or using the hookshot, if it were possible) would change the current room variable to the one south of where you are. Perhaps it was originally meant to actually load a new room? Walking down stairs does not change the room, even though a specific kind of stairs is required to set this mode in the first place. - The blue sword soldier will cause dramatic music to play when placed in Kakariko village, just like the spearman who comes when you talk to the scared girls. - An arrow or spear fired by enemy soldiers can be shot down with silver arrows.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Sorry, for a long time no post or reply, but I've been studying this game and found some better routes and optimal ways. For example, in Eastern Palace, thanks to pixel portation, I no longer have to go into the dark room to get a big key without Cane of Somaria, which was come upon from the way of which was performed by Superskuj with Somaria glitch. And now I'm using impromptu hitboxes with addresses of positions of the player and enemies and a camera, though I couldn't get width and height addresses. Also, scrolling text messages were automated. [on snes9x]
function autoMsg()
	windowBox = memory.readword(0x7E0010)
	msg = memory.readbyte(0x7E1CE9) - 1
	msgWait = memory.readbyte(0x7E1CE0)
	gui.text(64, 0, string.format("%d %d %X", msg, msgWait, windowBox))
	if windowBox == 0x20E then
		if msg == 0 then
			joypad.set(1, {A=1})
		end
	end
end
If 7E1CE0 gets a value except 0, you have to scroll text messages manually. [on BizHawk]
memory.usememorydomain("WRAM")
function autoMsg()
	windowBox = memory.readbyte(0x0010) + memory.readbyte(0x0011) * 0x100
	msg = memory.readbyte(0x1CE9)
	msgWait = memory.readbyte(0x1CE0)
	gui.pixelText(64, 0, string.format("%d %d %X", msg, msgWait, windowBox))
	if windowBox == 0x20E then
		if msg == 0 then
			joypad.set({A=1},1)
		end
		if (msgWait > 0) then
			joypad.set({A=1},1)	
		end
	end
end
Sometimes, Somaria glitch on snes9x v1.43 has too many lags, so someone who study this game and use the glitch should not use snes9x v1.43. A new tas has been longly waited and I'd like to improve my run, but I've been busy in real life and still can't afford to buy a new PC, which means BizHawk is still heavy on my PC, sorry. I've started thinking about including the number of bombs and arrows upgrades in a 100% tas, because we can get infinite rupee easily thanks to a YBA with blue potion.
Skilled player (1737)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4979
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
1. Does lsnes work fine on your pc at least? 2. If you're busy, it's fine; no need to rush this. I will eagerly wait for a TAS one day. 🙂 3. Not related to your post, but how exactly does the RNG of this game even work, how does it get used, and which parts of the run will need it?
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thank you, HHS and jlun2. BizHawk and lsnes work but something like speed up doesn't seem work on my PC. But thinking twice, it seems my fault of lack of endurance. Lsnes seems to have different syntax of luascripts, right? For the lack of my programming skills, I don't even know a substitute of 'emu.frameadvance()'. And I'm learning syntax of luascripts on BizHawk. Although it might be only an impromptu application, substitions like 'gui.pixelText = gui.text', 'gui.drawBox = gui.box', or something else work fine. But I think I should rewrite the script. The final version of the tas will be made on BizHawk. Wobbling and pixel portation trick are done easily by autohold, autofire, input macro editor. I now make an input file on snes9x and am planning to copy it on BizHawk. Currently, I'm planning to make another test run with new strategies, some of which were posted on this forum, and with prize pack manipulation in order to check whether it can be done and works fine. I heard somewhere RNG address was 7E0FA0 and 7E0FA1. When you charge a spin attack or NPC moves, they change. But I don't know which value works how, so basically luckmanipulation is being done by trial and error while watching the values. Also delaying entering the next screen for a frame affects luck. And in this game luck manipulation is not necessary when there is no NPC, so it is not necessary so often as you thought. I now post a luascript on snes9x I am currently using, though it's not sophisticated. Feel free to use and revise it. [OLD] https://pastebin.com/GfzxvM57 [NEW] https://pastebin.com/tsvLHw42 Maybe a little modification of syntax will work fine on BizHawk.
HHS
Active player (285)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 356
7E0FA0 is unrelated, but 7E0FA1 is indeed involved in random number generation, which is quite simple:
lda SLHV
lda OPHCT
adc FrameCounter
adc Random
sta Random
In other words, the current horizontal pixel counter is added to the frame counter along with the whatever the carry flag is set to, and the previous random value is added, again along with the carry from the last addition. Because the horizontal pixel counter is used, the results can be hard to predict and you'll just have to experiment to get the value you need. The RNG is used for a lot of things: - the chest games - bee movement - archer game - Sand Crab walk length and direction - where fireball Zoras surface - how far Zora King throws Octoroks - where Lanmolas surface - rat/grasshopper movement direction - Rope movement direction - Keese turning direction - Popo walk length and direction - where Toppo appears - green soldier walk length - green soldier turning - spear soldier walk length and direction - witch stirring speed - bottle man animation - medallion tablet debris position - whether or not to uncover powerups behind grass, bushes and rocks on the overworld - what type of random powerup to find - Hokkubokku initial direction - green soldier initial direction - luck after tossing rupees into pond - enemy drops - whether or not to uncover a trap on the overworld - digging game - about a zillion other things
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Thank you, HHS. Well, I'll wrote some information about digging game and chest game. When you delay digging a hole frame by frame, you see that the item dug out changes periodically. And every time you dig a hole, 7FFE01 is added by one. This is not added by shovel dash. It is not until you dig the 25th hole that Heart Piece appears. Also in chest game, the item in the box changes periodically by delaying checking the chest frame by frame. Heart Piece seems to appear from the second box. I need a lot of rupee on my latest tas route. If Heart Piece appears earlier in the both game, it's difficult to adopt it, sadly.
HHS
Active player (285)
Joined: 10/8/2006
Posts: 356
That's right, in the digging game there is 1/8 chance each of getting 1 rupee, 5 rupees, 20 rupees or a magic refill. After 25 holes there is also 1/8 chance of a heart piece. In the chest game that has the heart piece, there is 1/8 chance of getting it, doesn't matter if it is the first or second box.
Tompa
Any
Editor, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1941
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
HHS wrote:
In the chest game that has the heart piece, there is 1/8 chance of getting it, doesn't matter if it is the first or second box.
In the Japanese version, you can't get the Heart Piece on the first try.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Ah, that's why I never get a Heart Piece from the first box, thanks. Current test run, being recorded on snes9x v1.51rr. -> http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1704575780/ALttP_100p_2017_WIP_001.smv This is a test run. Not pixel perfect. PoD is quite glitchy. I didn't expect that. Accidentaly, I found it. So I posted it. Now bombs are fewer than I planned. I'll get them from the chest in Theives Hideout. Although there is a text message, newly founded way is still faster than old one. Pre-PoD, I mean when the BGM is the cave, backwalking through the doors is even faster but I don't adopt it for the lack of the bombs. The ruleset might be debatable, but what I am thinking about is everything allowed except ACE. Gray Ball and Chain Trooper was slashed. I once measured which way was the fastest but now I'm not confident. In the final version of the tas, I'll try every way, slashing, throwing a jar and slashing, throwing two jars. I did not use a damage boost. Btw, I'll explain backwalking through the door. I think there are two ways of backwalking through the door. Aside from optimal inputs, suppose you go through west. One is holding left and right. Screen scroll occurs. The other is holding left and right and when Link's X-position is under zero, hold up or down. Screen scroll doesn't occur. You can backwalk through north. With pixel portation, you can backwalk through south. If you backwalk through the door, you don't take damage when you touch an enemy but you can't slash an enemy. You take damage from something like a trap. And you cannot get anything under a jar. I haven't tested this trick well. I'm going to use this trick but I may miss someplace. With left/right pressing, infinite rupee glitch with YBA can be done at the entrance of dungeons very quickly. Mirror can be used after you get enough rupees.
Joined: 11/1/2017
Posts: 10
Enjoyed watching that, neo_omegon :-) I'm not a TAS-er at all, but I have some knowledge about glitches that you might not be aware of, as there's been a lot of new things the last couple of months. Mainly it's understanding "Plaid World" better. This is what we call that place you get to if you YBA flute. I made a write-up on this here (meant to be a non-technical description, but you can look at my code from the lua-script included in that text): https://gist.github.com/helgefmi/6cca5f2a52de663d41b7332b116b0edc I should note that even though this document is a few weeks old, it's a bit outdated already. One thing I'll add is that to actually reproduce the "infinite sanctuary heart" video, you need to die in a cave first. :) I think this can be well applied in a TAS like this; at the very least you can skip all the heart pieces: https://milde.no/public/alttp/clips/plaidSanctuaryHeartDupe.mp4 But with some clever routing it could be a faster way to kill bosses and fetch items as well. You can look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hLFt-X3kTk for an example of what we do in 100% speedruns currently (killing 4 bosses and grabbing hookshot in the same segment, then we have a separate crystal/pendant segment later on.) Perhaps you can draw some inspiration from the glitched 100% speedruns as well. You can find them on https://www.speedrun.com/alttp under "Major Glitches". The speedrun route does require all heart pieces to be grabbed, though, and obviously we have no ability to do left+right. :) Newly developed routes for 100% glitched speedruns (all HPs): https://pastebin.com/7gwV7HNn Same for RBO: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OewRZA8ahscIH3YZis_8ZsqCuAzrLaDPJtAr69x0yII/ One thing that I immediately saw as a possible improvement. In Palace of Darkness, when you bomb the floor to get to the Big Key: If you kill yourself on the same frame as you fall down the hole, Link will spawn north of the hole, and you can just move south to fall down the hole again. The door will be open, and so you skip the first small key. I believe you can see applications of this in the newest 100% glitched speedrun by xReleased. Maybe it is also faster to Hover to get to the big chest, instead of using a bomb. You can clip the railing while hovering and get to the platform.
Player (160)
Joined: 5/20/2010
Posts: 295
Hello, helgefmi. Welcome to TASVideos, and thanks for providing me with a lot of information, though I've not look through everything yet.
One thing that I immediately saw as a possible improvement. In Palace of Darkness, when you bomb the floor to get to the Big Key: If you kill yourself on the same frame as you fall down the hole, Link will spawn north of the hole, and you can just move south to fall down the hole again. The door will be open, and so you skip the first small key. I believe you can see applications of this in the newest 100% glitched speedrun by xReleased.
I tried it. Yes, it's definitely faster. It seemed odd that sometimes this glitch did not work. When I was robbed of more than two hearts in the room, the glitch worked. But I don't know the accurate condition when the glitch works. Waiting a few decades of frames seems necessary.
Maybe it is also faster to Hover to get to the big chest, instead of using a bomb. You can clip the railing while hovering and get to the platform.
Floating glitch is not available without pegasusu boots, IIRC. It seems slower to go through PoD without the boots but my current route is pretty decided. There would be something odd after that, too, but firstly, tentatively finishing is priority. Basically, the route is based on my tas posted on this forum in 2015. In some parts, I'll just copy and paste smvs, so there may be a lot of blank frames just before screen transition. As for RTA speedrun, I'm going to use newly founded YBA routes. Using Mirror to a dark room in PoD took some time. I won't use it. The route in PoD and GTower is what I posted here last year. Some note: about my WIP testrun. I didn't get 20r from Popo just before Armos because I planned without it. But getting it may make a rupee manipulation easier after that. I suppose moving from room to room by pixelporting in PoD is not avilable unless you open the small key door in pre-PoD. If you do not open the door, when you do pixelporting, Link is stuck while the position of Y is 0xe8. My goal is attaining a traditional 100% condition with glitches plus maxmizng bombs and arrows. While I'm going to get infinite rupees with YBA, I won't duplicate a heart container. So my ruleset is arbitrary. I said everything allowed without ACE, but my understanding about ACE may not be correct. I just won't use the trick like the one in 5084S. The main reason is I lack the knowledge. If you have an excessive expectation, I have to say I'm sorry.