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Post subject: SA1-2 TAS?
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After seeing SSBM as a speedrun, maybe people should consider TAS's of other GCN games, like a TAS of the Sonic Adventure series. I myself am an avid SA2B player and would love to see a run. Anyone who can beat my (genuine) Tails 2 time (0'14"57) with an emu is a genius.
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It doesn't quite work like that. See, the SSBM speedrun only works because SSBM has a debug mode and within it, a frame-advance feature (both can only be accessed with use of an Action Replay). I'm pretty sure SA doesn't have one. It's definitely more work, too, since (last I checked) the guy who made the SSBM run had to set the individual frames to run at 60fps.
Post subject: Sonic Adventure 2: Battle
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So, I finally got around to getting Dolphin and a SA2B ROM. As you may or may not know, I have a speedrun of SA2B up at SDA, so I decided to take a look into what can be done in this game. Unforutnately, Dolphin's keyboard plugin leaves a bit to be desired, and I don't as of now have a controller to use for it, but I can say with certainty that Sand Ocean is improvable by at least 10 seconds through better platforming. Said platforming would be absurdly hard in real time, but hey, it's a TAS. I really can't wait for Dolphin to have rerecording.
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Things I'm wondering: -Pumpkin Hill, hard mode: The last piece is floating about 250 feet up in the air. Rather than obtaining it in the usual way, I've had a long-standing theory that it's possible to drop down and die by fall out, then immediately tap A twice and float up to get the piece, saving about 8 seconds over any other method. The problem, of course, is that from the moment of death you get only 2.9 seconds before the screen fades out and you get credit for nothing--even if you were on pace to hit it. Based on some non-TAS test recordings, I've run some calculations to find that it's possible to cover at least 96% of the necessary height in time (maybe more depending on how far off my lateral coordinates were during the test). The big question is...is 100% possible? -Crazy Gadget: In the room with three switches on the ceiling, press the left switch. Now go down as far as you can in this room. By jumping shortly past the bump at the bottom, it's possible (on occasion) to avoid hitting any kill planes and enter an endless sideways fall. By moving further down and towards the back (relative to what the directions were in the gravity switch room, though the camera will shift by now), it's possible to move over while falling so that you can get into the colored block area at the end of the stage (just crossing into this area triggers a fall out, though). If we could figure out what allows you to cheat the kill planes there, we could see if it's possible to start that sideways journey with any significant amount of downward momentum; if it is, I'm fairly certain a TAS could engineer a sideways fall that tags the Chao for a mission 3 clear under 50 seconds. The goal ring is significantly further away, in terms of how much further down you have to be to reach it, so that will likely stay off limits, preventing three more missions from being destroyed the same way. -What are the conditions that make arbitrary pass-through of convex corners possible? Is it any different for concave intersections? (This might require memory search/viewer, or a patch code to view the collision polygons, before we can figure it out.) I'm probably forgetting a lot more things right now, but it's not like I'll be able to run Dolphin with any kind of decent performance any time soon, and since I don't think it has memory search at this point, there's little I'd be able to get out of it even if I could.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBHQlAhuFgY&feature=channel I think this could be a fake TAS. Not sure though. :\
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The game is already completed in that run. They're using items/abilities that are earned through the course of the game. I can't tell whether or not the run is legit, but it looks fast...
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Whoever did that, he didn't need to grab the master emerald pieces in order, just whatever is closest and then the next one. Just saying...
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Well it'd certainly be impressive for a real time run, but I doubt you could do Wild Canyon like that in a non TAS. Speaking of which, anybody have perfect knowledge on how the treasure hunter levels work? I was under the impression that all 3 emeralds existed on the map from the very start of the level, so either it's different in that version or he just took an extremely inefficient route to get them all. Assuming you can't manipulate all three into being right next to each other at the start (it always dumps one in each main area doesnt it?) then I'd presume collecting them the normal way would be faster than abusing death resets. As long as you make sure the ones you do get are the closest of their respective areas, then it'd woudnt be too bad. Well, other than on the huge ones like Mad Space/Meteor herd of course, then I'm sure two deaths would be faster than searching the planets for them.
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Flip wrote:
Well it'd certainly be impressive for a real time run, but I doubt you could do Wild Canyon like that in a non TAS. Speaking of which, anybody have perfect knowledge on how the treasure hunter levels work? I was under the impression that all 3 emeralds existed on the map from the very start of the level, so either it's different in that version or he just took an extremely inefficient route to get them all. Assuming you can't manipulate all three into being right next to each other at the start (it always dumps one in each main area doesnt it?) then I'd presume collecting them the normal way would be faster than abusing death resets. As long as you make sure the ones you do get are the closest of their respective areas, then it'd woudnt be too bad. Well, other than on the huge ones like Mad Space/Meteor herd of course, then I'm sure two deaths would be faster than searching the planets for them.
He just took an inefficient route. His reply to MaskedKirby says he didn't think of doing them out of order. I don't think it's possible to manipulate them being right next to each other, though. IIRC, the game makes sure not to place Emeralds too close to each other.
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In Hard Mode, the emeralds and shards appear in the exact same places every time. They are slightly randomized in lesser difficulties, but they do have various set positions that they will appear in. I can't remember if this means that their positions are in a set of three or all randomized, but I'm sure that wouldn't take but a couple of level entries to test. The emeralds and shards are also collectible in any order, even if it's not the particular one that the radar is looking for. I'm pretty sure of that, at least; the rest of the crowd seems confident about it, too. However, if we're playing in Hard Mode, it may just prove fruitless to attempt to go at them in a different order than the game presents them in, especially seeing how the designers like the idea of making the player go far out of their way to get the third piece.
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This may help, not sure if it's the best position, i think that maybe all the best shards position should be all in the lower level.
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In each level, each piece has 32 different locations it can appear at, sometimes minus a few that were evidently removed during development and never replaced. A few enemies are also designated as potential piece holders; these pieces are added to the rotation for both #1 and #2. In addition, there's a "lockout" restriction on placements, which I haven't fully decoded yet. After placing piece 1, the game makes sure not to place 2 in any location sufficiently close to 1, and likewise doesn't place 3 close to the 2 (no idea how it determines "sufficiently close," but that's definitely the type of system it uses, so I doubt there's a way to squeeze all three Wild Canyon pieces into the bottom floor while complying with the lockouts.) If you get one or more pieces and then die, the stage remembers the locations of the pieces you got, and rerolls only the unobtained ones in accordance with lockouts; still, if you're doing a speedrun segmented by death, the lockout is trivially circumvented by obtaining the pieces in reverse order. You still have to keep trying until the piece spawns in your location of choice, but at least it's possible this way; even if you can get the generator to throw you all three of the best locations on consecutive lives, from a realtime perspective this is probably slower than a good 1-life layout (except in Death Chamber), not to mention it doesn't show nearly as much of the stage to the watcher. A list of hints enumerating every piece in the Dreamcast version can be found at http://soniccenter.org/sm/files/sa2huntwcrip.txt and so on, changing "wc" to each of the other stage initials. There's at least one piece, and probably many more, that were removed between SA2 and SA2B, and maybe some that were added in that time but I can't think of any possible examples of the latter, at least not in single-player mode. If I ever get a hold of the SA2B hint lists and they turn out to be different, I'll provide those too. Current speedrun routes for hard mode are as follows: Wild Canyon 3-1-2 Pumpkin Hill each piece on a separate life, so might as well go 1-2-3 to take advantage of radar. The fastest game time also requires an annoyingly long setup where you have to die, after gliding all the way to the edge of the level, twice. From a realtime perspective I don't even want to think about how ugly this level would be. Aquatic Mine 3-2, die, 1 (or I guess in a TAS, there's no downside to getting 1 first, dying and getting 3-2.) 1 and 2 are located in opposite extremities of the level, so anything that gets both in a single life is going to appear tedious, especially on GC. Fortunately, both 1 and 2 are right next to spikeballs where you can die with a minimal waste of real time. Death Chamber 1-3-2 Meteor Herd 1-3-2 Dry Lagoon - the fastest route goes 2-1-3 but may only be possible on Dreamcast. By my understanding of Screw Kick physics and how they changed between versions, 2-1-3 should be the same Egg Quarters 2-3-die-1 (actually 2-die-3, 1, because you can squeeze out a slight bit of time by dying as part of the setup that gets you access to key 3). Attempting to visit 1 and 2 in the same life is probably a hopeless loss of time, but depending on how well it's possible for a TAS to conserve height over a long glide, you might be able to nip 1, stay on the wrong side of the wall, then cut straight across the level, hopefully emerging in the Snake Altar so that you can get 2. Security Hall each emerald on a separate life (in a non-TAS, I find the 3-1-2 order most convenient), and the deaths are practically immediate. You really don't want to TAS the SA2B version of this level unless you can find a somewhat fast way to sneak into "that" safe while it's locked. It would just look too poor otherwise. Mad Space 3-1-2. Going 3-1-die-2 may potentially be about half a second faster, but definitely not worth it in realtime or in aesthetics. I leave you with a prop bet: When those guys finally get around to Cannon's Core, will their first TAS of the level be...over/under 66.0? [EDIT:] Over, by a huge margin.
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Mr. Pwnage wrote:
After placing piece 1, the game makes sure not to place 2 in any location sufficiently close to 1, and likewise doesn't place 3 close to the 2.
But can it place 3 close to 1?
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The lockout radius between 1 and 3, if it exists, is smaller than that for the ones involving 2. I know I've hit the closest 3 spot in Meteor Herd alongside the second-closest 1 to that spot, and meanwhile that 1 proceeds to lock out everything on the ground level for 2. Then again, the best 1 and 3 in Wild Canyon (both of which make their presence immediately apparent at the start) should coincide with a naive 1/1344 probability, while I've run far more than that many "blank slate" lives in that mission (i.e. with no pieces in the bank) without spotting that collision. The actual game executable includes debug error messages such as "EMERALD A ERROR(OKISUGI)" (where C is actually item 1 and A is item 3), but figuring out what triggers them is likely off-limits without a refined disassembly. Also: One of the more recent TASes here was for Crazy Gadget, which looked solid in its own way and used some special TAS touches for once (like bouncing up to the ceiling and light-dashing a ring chain there) to take 3 seconds off the old record. Then the record-holder responded by taking off another 30, non-TAS, and almost (but not quite) in the manner I was forecasting in the first reply. It might be worth looking into the "miracle route" in missions other than 3 after all, which would now be good for about 42 seconds on all of them.
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Crazy Gadget sub-1:00 by DennisBalow Link to video With the recent revisions, and the addition of frame advance, I think this is more believable.
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Sonikkustar wrote:
Crazy Gadget sub-1:00 by DennisBalow Link to video With the recent revisions, and the addition of frame advance, I think this is more believable.
Apparently, sound effects can't be emulated yet.
Why, oh, why do I even <i>try</i> to understand my own species?
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Oooh I am soo looking forward to see this game ripped apart by you guys.
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Holy moly......! That was freaking awesome man :) Do not worry so much about the crackling sound, Kiesel and Lordmark are currently working fixing those minor issues. PLeeeeeeeeeease continue with this tas :) Love you sonicpacker :D
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
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I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
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I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
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What looks better for this game? A 16:9 or 4:3 aspect ratio?
4:3 None of the Gamecube games I know have 16:9 support. The only solution is to use a widescreen hack so that the video doesn't look noobishly stretched. 99% of the Wii games have 16:9 support. Mario Party 8 is a notable Wii game that lacks 16:9.
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Greenalink wrote:
None of the Gamecube games I know have 16:9 support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_GameCube_games_with_480p_and_16:9_support
Greenalink wrote:
The only solution is to use a widescreen hack so that the video doesn't look noobishly stretched.
That was what I was asking; if widescreen hack should be used for encodes of this game or not.
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Thanks for the link sonicpacker. Out of all of the games I own, F-Zero GX & Soul Calibur 2 are the only ones. Pretty odd really I think, especially when most of the must have GC games lack true widescreen. I remembered Rare N64 shooters having Widescreen support too.
That was what I was asking; if widescreen hack should be used for encodes of this game or not.
Maybe if there was a secondary encode that supported hacked Widescreen support like most of the 2D runs having HD encodes.
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I liked both videos. Good job, sonicpacker.
sonicpacker wrote:
Greenalink wrote:
The only solution is to use a widescreen hack so that the video doesn't look noobishly stretched.
That was what I was asking; if widescreen hack should be used for encodes of this game or not.
In my opinion, encodes of this game should be 4:3 to keep them as true to the original as possible.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
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Zeupar wrote:
I liked both videos. Good job, sonicpacker.
sonicpacker wrote:
Greenalink wrote:
The only solution is to use a widescreen hack so that the video doesn't look noobishly stretched.
That was what I was asking; if widescreen hack should be used for encodes of this game or not.
In my opinion, encodes of this game should be 4:3 to keep them as true to the original as possible.
I agree. If we start encoding 4:3 GC games to 16:9, we could aswell do the same for N64 games, etc.
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I'd say 4:3 for games where 4:3 is the only option. Since you have to manually set the widescreen option in gamecube games, only people who are willing to sacrifice some time for a better viewing experience (in my opinion) will actually do this.
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