Having the powers of flight and spindashing, Tails blasts through Sonic 1, leaving Sonic and even the mighty Knuckles eating dust in almost all levels of the game. This movie was made with Pu7o's Tails in Sonic 1 hack, version 2.1.1. [Moderator Edit: Do not link to websites that host copyright protected materials (e.g. game ROMs)]

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Gens 9Z
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Takes no damage
  • Abuses programming errors
  • Ignores delays caused by bonus effects

Comments

This impressive hack by Pu7o places Tails into Sonic the Hedgehog 1. Being a marked improvement (and complete rewrite) over the earlier version by drx, it underwent two revisions during the making of this movie to make Tails' flight and swimming work exactly like they do in Sonic 3 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
This was based on the Sonic and the Knuckles runs of Sonic 1. But differences between Tails and Sonic (spindash, flight and even hitbox size) and between Tails and Knuckles (flight vs. glide/climb) made some routes impossible while enabling others. Overall, the two-tailed game wrecker blasts through the game leaving everyone else far behind.
The biggest time saver was the abuse of the Sonic 3 enforced screen boundary for Tails' flight: whenever you start flight (or boost) at or above the top of the stage, vertical speed is set to zero, preventing horizontal speed loss due to drag. Thus, you can maintain a given altitude and horizontal speed for as long as Tails' can fly. The use of this technique is marked below.

Timetable

LevelTime
Green Hill 10:16:34
Green Hill 20:15:15
Green Hill 30:28:25
Marble 10:13:23
Marble 20:14:19
Marble 30:27:08
Spring Yard 10:18:41
Spring Yard 20:15:38
Spring Yard 30:38:49
Labyrinth 10:24:39
Labyrinth 20:24:08
Labyrinth 30:27:08
Star Light 10:17:19
Star Light 20:10:11
Star Light 30:29:27
Scrap Brain 10:21:22
Scrap Brain 20:19:13
Scrap Brain 30:08:45
Final1:12:58
Total7:23:22
The table shows the in-game timer values. The value after the final colon indicates the in-game frame counter, and is restricted to the [0-59] range. It is updated every frame (except during lag frames), and increments the in-game second when resetting to zero.

Stage by stage comments

Green Hill Zone 1

The flight and subsequent braking at around 0:09 avoid losing some time to jumping, and manipulate the position enough to make the most of the triple-jump boost at the loop and allow a bugged vertical speed drop after the tube which saves me some 4 frames of drag around 0:13:56. That flight is above spindash speed, and that speed is kept until the end.

Green Hill Zone 2

Alas, the ease with which Tails could enter the wall even for casual players at the start of this stage means Pu7o added some extra walls to prevent it. Thus, Tails has to go through by sheer speed. This is one of 3 levels in which Knuckles is faster than Tails, and the only level in which Sonic is faster than Tails.

Green Hill Zone 3

Same route as Knuckles. Some bits of flight here and there make Tails slightly faster.

Marble Zone 1

Same basic route as Knuckles, as using the cave zip from the Sonic run is slower. Using flight at 0:04:48 allows me to reach the slope at 0:06:44 with tremendous horizontal speed, resulting in a very high vertical speed. Pixel/subpixel manipulation allows me to hit the slope at 0:12:28 in very favorable conditions for that last jump.

Marble Zone 2

Same basic route as Knuckles, as the Sonic route is much, much slower. Abusing slope, Tails can fly to the top of the walls with minimal speed loss and without having to bounce on the bees. Letting go of the spindash even a frame before 0:07:35 hits the wall and stops; immediately after, subpixel manipulation allows me to hit the ground at an optimal slope change to fly up the wall.

Marble Zone 3

Same basic route as Knuckles, as using the cave zip from the Sonic run is slower. Delaying flight at the start results in a very large speed gain. I have to jump/brake at the top of the wall for the second spindash to avoid losing time. Some braking after the ground is done allows me to abuse slope when I hit the ground below and set up another optimal slope change at the final slope before the boss. The boss is killed perfectly: Robotnik can't be defeated even a frame earlier.

Spring Yard Zone 1

Starts more or less the same way as Knuckles, but uses the Sonic trick when getting the speed shoes (Knuckles can stop with glide there). I avoid rolling down the slope at around 0:07:00 to retain control when I jump 12 frames later; this allows me to lose less speed due to drag because of the enforced screen boundary abuse.

Spring Yard Zone 2

With some (massive) improvements courtesy of Upthorn, this level abuses the enforced screen boundaries only slightly: at the beginning, to keep most of the speed up until that big slope which I roll down. Slope jumping and abuse of changing slope lead to insane speeds for the rest of the level.

Spring Yard Zone 3

Sadly, Tails can't fly above the wall because of the enforced screen boundaries. It is also impossible to reach those moving sprites at 0:05:xx fast enough to not have to wait. Tails isn't fazed, and abuses the enforced screen boundaries to end the level very quickly. Even taking the speed shoes as Knuckles and Sonic do isn't enough to compete with Tails here. Flight saves the day further by allowing Tails to defeat the boss ultra fast. This level has some improvements by Upthorn, and is the only level other than the Final Zone to take more than 30 seconds.

Labyrinth Zone 1

Not much to say. Knuckles can use glide to great effect in this stage, saving about 1.5 seconds over Tails due to not having to wait as long to reach the ground after the several jumps.

Labyrinth Zone 2

A better start, and the shortcut from the Sonic run allow Tails to do this level faster than Sonic or Knuckles. This level has some improvements by Upthorn.

Labyrinth Zone 3

Swimming allows Tails to reproduce the shortcut used by Knuckles. It also allows Tails to enter the shortcut more efficiently, and to improve it markedly by not having to wait for the screen to catch up.

Star Light Zone 1

Flight allows me to touch the bridge a few frames earlier. Subpixel manipulation at the wall at 0:03:24 to 0:03:47 allow me to gain great speed by jumping at 0:06:54 and slope jumping afterward and still clip the edge at 0:07:36, allowing me to reach the ledge without using flight or the spring. Slope jumping and flight give me a high speed at the end.

Star Light Zone 2

Spindash and slope jumping give me some insane speeds to work with. Add in the enforced screen boundary abuse to keep most of the speed. The result: I have to do some braking at the end of the level so that the screen can catch up enough that I hit the end sign.

Star Light Zone 3

Slope jumping, enforced screen boundary abuse and subpixel manipulation (about 0:12:00 to 0:12:20) afford some insane speeds. Flight then allows me to slaughter Robotnik.

Scrap Brain Zone 1

Following the Knuckles route, as the Sonic route ends up being slower. Flight makes this route much more effective.

Scrap Brain Zone 2

Running through the fire at the beginning allow me to hit the gear in a way that I can gain absurd vertical speed in that jump. I use the Sonic shortcut, but improve it with judicious spindashing. At around 0:11:xx, I could brake faster or release the spindash earlier; but I would just bump into the saw and lose a lot more time than I do waiting a little bit. I then abuse the changing slopes and fly until the end. Stage transition is very optimized too.

Scrap Brain Zone 3

Using spindash and flight to improve on the shortcut from the Sonic run gives an insanely short time for this stage.

Final Zone

This is a single frame slower than the Knuckles version of the stage. I can't figure out where this frame is coming...

Other comments

I wish to send a big thanks to Upthorn: not only for several extremely useful suggestions for improvements, but also for actually improving 3 levels and for making a special version of Gens with camera hack for this ROM.
Possible improvements: It might be possible to improve Green Hill Zone 3 by one or two frames up until the boss, and maybe by another frame in the boss fight. Labyrinth Zone 1 might also be improvable by some 2 frames. And I think that it may be possible to gain a couple frames in the boss fight of Star Light Zone 3. I have tried to make these improvements in many different ways, but always ended up failing, though.
Suggested screenshot:

NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. I'm not sure I got the right ROM though. (I tried Sonic Spinball (U) [p1].gen, which was the closest match to what you wrote.) Well, here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.

mmbossman: I am rejecting this submission because it is extremely similar to the Knuckles hack of Sonic 1 that is already published, with a detailed breakdown here. Although this run is both well done and entertaining, it is lacking in unique content, due to the fact that spin-dashing is identical, and flying is only minimally different than gliding. Best of luck on your next project, marzojr, you have some good TASing skills, so please take this decision as constructive criticism.

mmbossman: This submission has been given another chance at publication. If you feel it should be published, instead of returning to the grue, please post WHY in the thread. Similarly, if you do NOT think this movie should be published, post WHY.

mmbossman: People really like this run, so I'm reverting my previous decision. Accepting as a new run, to be placed in 'Concept/Demos' (at least for now).

ShinyDoofy: Will publish "soon".


Banned User
Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy
Derakon wrote:
If I recall correctly, Tails can damage things by hitting them from below when he's flying.
Yes. His tails can also deflect some kinds of bullets. He's still vulnerable on his other sides, though.
Gone.
Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
I found the run surprisingly fun to watch, I think the run differs enough from both the Sonic and Knuckles run to warrant seperate publication. The Spring Yard levels were clear indication of that. I didn't really mind the flying, given that much of it was supercharged; and not slow painful flying which I feared before watching the run. For Entertainment I give 7.5 and for Tech 7.8. While at times great knowledge and precision is shown during the run, some of the stuff looked a bit improvable, I couldn't help but think about GH2 from my WIP.
Joined: 12/1/2006
Posts: 26
You can't go into the wall on GHZ2 in Tails in S1.
marzojr
He/Him
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France
I have been offline for the past few days, so I could not reply earlier. In any case, thanks all for the comments (and votes).
upthorn wrote:
It's reasonably entertaining, and improved technically from the last one I watched, but there's still a couple of places where it looks like there's improvement yet to be eke'd out. GHZ1, LZ3, and SLZ3, to name a few.
Hm. Though I am unsure about GHZ1 and SLZ3 (would need to know what you think can be improved, as almost everything else I tried was slower), I went to test the only place I could think of in LZ3 that might be improvable and got it down to 0:26:47, a 21-frame reduction. Can a run be revised before it is published or should I wait for it to be published, collect this and any other improvements I get and submit as an improvement?
upthorn wrote:
If this is published, I'd recommend against obsoleting the Knuckles version.
Despite "competing" with the times from the Knuckles run while I was making the movie, I never intended this TAS to obsolete the Knuckles TAS.
upthorn wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Knuckles run would be faster if it were updated.
I had this exact feeling in a few levels while I was making the TAS. I recall thinking that GHZ1, SLZ1, SLZ2 and SLZ3 might be improvable, and that using the shortcuts from the Sonic run, SBZ2, SBZ3 and maybe LZ2.
AKA wrote:
While at times great knowledge and precision is shown during the run, some of the stuff looked a bit improvable, I couldn't help but think about GH2 from my WIP
As Pu7o said, the wall entrance is not possible in the hack or I would have used the same shortcut from the Sonic and Knuckles runs (I mentioned that in the level by level comments). Towards the end, it is slightly faster (by 2 frames) to take the bottom route with Tails. Anyways, the WIP you link to is slightly over 2 seconds slower than the present TAS; Sonic is only faster in this level (as I stated in the comments) by using the wall entrance to overflow the horizontal position and wrap around the level.
Marzo Junior
Former player
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716
Great to see you've found another improvement!
marzojr wrote:
Can a run be revised before it is published or should I wait for it to be published, collect this and any other improvements I get and submit as an improvement?
Ask an Admin (or judge? Don't know whether or not they can do this as well) to replace the current .gmv file with your improved one. Alternatively, be sure to also link to that file in your submission text so that the judges see this in case it hasn't been replaced by an admin until then. As a sidenote, notice that DeHackEd tends to ignore the PM system and just not check his box very often (if at all).
Skilled player (1652)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Pu7o wrote:
YouTube'd
Thanks for 'tubing it. Was interesting enough. Boy, that final boss of Sonic 1 is boring and lame. Who thought that would be a great and epic final battle?
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Editor, Expert player (2478)
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Why not hack the game a bit more and make the bonus countdown faster? After all, the hack already produces longer bonus countdown sequences than normally possible, so hacking them shorter would not ruin the game more than the hack already does. I think the movie is very boring. Both the hack and the movie are technically well done, though.
Post subject: Re: #2140: marzojr's Genesis Tails in Sonic 1 v2.1.1 in 14:29.3
Joined: 7/27/2007
Posts: 38
NesVideoAgent wrote:
<p>The biggest time saver was the abuse of the Sonic 3 enforced screen boundary for Tails' flight: whenever you start flight (or boost) at or above the top of the stage, vertical speed is set to zero, preventing horizontal speed loss due to drag.
Isn't the hack kind of a cheat? If you use sprites for tails from Sonic 3, why not take the sprites for Sonic from Sonic 3, and use him to make a speedrun? Also, wouldn't the same go for Knuckles too? The movie is good, I'm just concerned about the 'fairness' of using the hacked rom.
TAS: to beat a game faster than Sonic can blink.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
It's only a cheat in the sense that you're using a character that the game wasn't designed for. It's a hack, like any other hack; would you say that the storable powerups in Mario Adventure are a cheat? Hacks on this site generally get accepted or denied on their own merits as games, not by comparing them to the games they're descended from. In short, fairness doesn't enter into it because nobody's going to try to compare the "vanilla" Sonic 1 run against the Tails in Sonic 1 run and use that to say that the Sonic run is slower. Though, it would be interesting to see how well Sonic could do if he had the spindash, insta-shield, and elemental shields from S3K.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Post subject: Re: #2140: marzojr's Genesis Tails in Sonic 1 v2.1.1 in 14:2
upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (391)
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
wazkatango wrote:
wouldn't the same go for Knuckles too?
You mean like http://tasvideos.org/796M.html?
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Former player
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716
As this run/threads hasn't had a post in almost three weeks and the submission text does not indicate an updated .gmv file, did anything happen with the 21-frame improvement marzojr found?
Banned User
Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy
ShinyDoofy wrote:
As this run/threads hasn't had a post in almost three weeks and the submission text does not indicate an updated .gmv file, did anything happen with the 21-frame improvement marzojr found?
My feeling about this is that this submission should be canceled since it's been declared suboptimal by its own author's words, and then someone skilled at Sonic like Upthorn or Nitsuja can hex that improvement in, and make a new submission as a co-author. But that's just my opinion.
Gone.
Former player
Joined: 12/5/2007
Posts: 716
marzojr has already hexed his own run quite a few times. At least that's what I assume from reading the thread about this hack in the Sega forums. Thus I don't see the point of cancelling the run itself when an updated and faster .gmv already solves the issue.
Banned User
Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy
Because if he's not the one who applies the improvements, the submission should list someone else as co-author. I'm not that familiar with the submission system, but if it's possible to switch the current author from "marzojr" to "marzojr & xxx", then this one can stay, yes. I just wanted to be sure that everyone could get proper credit.
Gone.
Joined: 4/3/2006
Posts: 269
All I can say is: Wow! That's fast! It's pure speed in this TAS.
marzojr
He/Him
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France
Sorry for the long delay, but over the past few weeks, I have been first without a computer, then without internet and finally out of town. I have just PM'ed one of the admins about updating the GMV; for those that can't wait, the new video is here. The 21-frame difference is at the very end of LZ3, if you blink you will miss it (but the in-game timer proves it is there :-p).
Marzo Junior
Banned User
Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy
That's awesome! Stay tuned for an updated encode :) edit: http://rapidshare.com/files/180910344/tailsinsonic1-tas-marzojr.avi.avi
Gone.
Active player (348)
Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 940
Location: Toronto, Canada
When I first booted up the YouTube link, I thought, "Sure this will be cool." Then I got to Green Hill 2 and realized you weren't doing the warp glitch, and I thought "Bummer." But 15 seconds later I found myself saying "Did he just go THROUGH THE FLOOR?!" My favourite zones to watch: Green Hill 2 Spring Yard 2 (Where's Miles?) Labyrinth 3 (what boss? and who killed the guy who was supposed to turn the music off?) Star Light 2 Everything else was great too. I also agree with what _4matsy said on IRC; the shot of Tails yawning in Scrap Brain 2 should be the screenshot. 8.5/abstained for not knowing the game engine well enough.
My current project: Something mysterious (oooooh!) My username is all lower-case letters. Please get it right :(
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
As noted earlier in the thread, the guy that made this hack specifically added a wall in to prevent the glitch in GH2, since it's far easier to do with Tails than with Sonic/Knuckles.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
I loved this run! Tails yawning was probably the funniest moment for me so I dunno if it should be the screenshot but hey, why not :) Also here's a 65MB encode: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?eo2mzznywrm (not publishable since I didn't put file stats like play length)
marzojr
He/Him
Experienced player (761)
Joined: 9/29/2008
Posts: 964
Location: 🇫🇷 France
Do you mean something like this:
Marzo Junior
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Xkeeper wrote:
It's Tails and it's fast. Unfortunately, it really suffers from SMW syndrome. Namely, flying over most of the levels :\ Some of the best parts were in Spring Yard where you basically zoomed though shit at top speed.
It's rare, but suprisingly I agree with Xkeeper here. As several have said, the game is clearly not designed for the spindash, and this movie takes advantage of that (and flying) to basically skip over everything. I don't see how this provides for an entertaining TAS. What if someone made a SMB3 hack that put in the SMW cape and proceeded to fly over all the levels? Its pretty much a bad concept all around. In addition, the spindashing apparently allows for some rather significant glitches not possible in the original game. We had a discussion on this subject with the Zelda outlands submission. The consensus there was that breaking a hack wasn't a very entertaining game concept. I do not think this hack should be "approved" for publication. Despite the high ratings, I see a lot of other people not being to impressed as well (apparently an 8 is poor entertainment value these days).
nineko wrote:
I'm not that familiar with the submission system, but if it's possible to switch the current author from "marzojr" to "marzojr & xxx"
An author's name can be easily changed after submission, so it would not be required to resubmit in order to add an author's name
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (391)
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
adelikat wrote:
the spindashing apparently allows for some rather significant glitches not possible in the original game. We had a discussion on this subject with the Zelda outlands submission. The consensus there was that breaking a hack wasn't a very entertaining game concept.
http://tasvideos.org/796M.html
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3573)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Well, when watching the knuckles hack, I didn't get that impression. The player was still able to stay within the confines of the level more rather than hovering over it. That was my general impression. If I am wrong about that then perhaps that publication was a mistake.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
upthorn
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Active player (391)
Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 1802
adelikat wrote:
when watching the knuckles hack, the player was still able to stay within the confines of the level more
http://tasvideos.org/1242M.html
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.