Super Metroid 14% (aka. glitchless/legit Low%) TAS v1.1 by Saturn

Recorded on Snes9x 1.43-improvement9 (but works on future versions of the Snes9x 1.43 series just fine as well)

Sync Settings

  • WIP 1 Timing: ON
  • Left+Right/Up+Down: OFF
  • Volume Envelope Height Reading: OFF
  • Fake Mute desync workaround: ON
  • Sync samples with sound CPU: ON

Attributes of this run

  • 14% mode (beats the game with the least amount of items possible in legal conditions)
  • aims for fastest possible time, both, real- and ingame time wise
  • takes damage to save time
  • very high luck manipulation (especially to get optimal refills)
  • abuses glitches (but not the major out of room ones the 6% TAS does)
  • Genre: Platformer
  • Total Frames: 153428
Addendum by Bisqwit: "legal conditions" as defined here: Forum/Posts/184660 and Forum/Posts/184775 according to the author.
Suggested screenshot:

About the Game

Super Metroid is a classic platformer with many advanced techniques and a very fine, subpixel-based move engine. The story is about a bounty hunter called Samus who has the goal to explore a foreign planet called Zebes to find and destroy Mother Brain, the evil leader of the galaxy who is breeding a mighty species called Metroids to abuse them for her own benefits. During the journey you will find alot of items such as new ammo, energy tanks, special upgrades that speed you up or allow to pass certain areas you would normally not be able to, and making your character strong enough to be ready for the upcoming showdown against Mother Brain.
Despite being 14 years old by now, it is considered as one of the best games ever made, and is still played by many people on a regular basis. Due to the many different move techniques, a high variety through the new upgrades, and alot of route possibilities, this game is a very common target for many types of speedruns and playthroughs.

Moviemaking & Comments

As promised in the Super Metroid thread, here is my first version of a 14% TAS. I mainly recorded it between July 19, 2007 and January 1 2008 (v1.0), with a small improvement added during the big Metroid escape in July 2008 (v1.1). It's a huge improvement to the previous run, beating it by gigantic 30517 frames (or ~8,5 minutes) of realtime, and achieving a record-time completion of 0:27 minutes on the game clock (or 27:59 to be more exactly), which is definitely the limit for a glitchless 14% run. On top of that I managed to avoid the pause screen / menu entrance completely except to execute the unavoidable Gravity Jump, getting a optimal realtime as well while making the run more entertaining to watch due to less interruptions.
During the making of the run I managed to develop some really cool techs never done before, most noticeably the "WS-Lake horizontal bomb jump" without collecting the Missile pack, and also many new strategies at bosses (especially on Ridley and Draygon) to still beat them very quickly, even with the very limited conditions in ammo and equipment. Finally the run uses a fully optimized route to avoid backtracking as much as possible.
All in all, the quality of the run is very high, and it's only improvable by at most 15 seconds in the early parts of the run (the late ones are pretty much flawless with a few tiny exceptions worth of single frames only). Ammo and energy management is excellent over the entire run, and in fact, the refill drops are so good in this one that I doubt they could be reproduced without sacrificing realtime by entering the menu to manipulate them, which would in any case result in possible slowdowns to compensate that.
Seeing that the 14% category got kind of obsoleted by the 6% NBMB one (although they can't really be compared to each other), I don't expect this to be published, despite the huge and ground breaking improvement. My intention with this submission is to just contribute a unique run that sets a eternal ingame completion record to this site for the many people who want to see it, especially for those who have problems downloading large video files due to slow connections. It's definitely not less entertaining than the 6% NBMB TAS overall, so maybe it's worth to at least include this submission to the description of it without necessary publishing, like it was done a couple of times before. There is also a concept demo section for runs that aim for special goals like this one, so it would eventually fit there as well.

Ice VS Speed

In a 14% run, you must either take the Ice Beam, or Speed Booster. Both items, as different as they are, have the same purpose: They are required to get past the pre-Botwoon room and through the Zebetites in Tourian. I collected the Ice Beam in this run because my tests have confirmed that it is at least 75 ingame seconds (and even more realtime sec) faster in the end, despite of the slower running speed and the missing shinesparks. The reason is that Ice Beam does 50% more damage than the normal beam you have to use when picking up Speed Booster, and therefore speeds up boss battles with much HP alot. In fact, the Mother Brain fight alone already compensates the entire losses of the lacking Speed Booster, with additional big time saver at Ridley and the Metroids (which you would have to slowly PB otherwise).

Thanks

  • Terimakasih -- for his previous 0:35 run. He used a nearly same route, which helped alot in the decision to pick Ice over Speed Booster, giving me a pretty accurate estimation before even starting this run that the former will be a faster choice especially due to early Wrecked Ship.
  • Cpadolf -- for his new technique to escape the big Metroid even faster. It was the key to get the 0:27 time in this run.
  • Hero of the Day -- for his any% v1 in 0:25 run. It was of great help to me when comparing the Speed Booster gains and allowed me to estimate the rough completion time of this run already back at Ridley.
  • Moozooh -- for the Torizo Skip, and for motivating me to start this run parallelly to his own 14% one that would use the Speed Booster route. I actually hoped he would finish his one so that we would have TASes for both routes and a better comparison between them, but unfortunately it didn't want to happen.
And everybody else who has contributed something useful for SM-TASing.

Notes

For those interested, this run is also available on YouTube.
Enjoy!

mmbossman: I’m rejecting this run for the following reasons:
Primary reason - Quoting the Judge Guidelines: ‘’Keep the number of different branches per a game minimal.’’ This run is an attempt to resurrect a movie branch that is now obsolete, as there is already a true low% Super Metroid run published, and I see no need to resurrect a dead category. Considering that the previous 14% run was left unimproved for 4 years, while multiple other Super Metroid runs were improved (and added) several times, it shows that there is a lack of interest in the Super Metroid TAS community in this category, which can likely be correlated to a lower interest in this category from the TASvideos community in general. When compared to the three currently published "non-glitched" runs, this movie provides very little additional entertainment value for viewers who do not closely follow Super Metroid techniques and tricks.
Secondary reason - The goals of this run, along with the execution of those goals, are nebulous. The author has stated an obvious preference towards ‘’maximally optimized subpixel position’’ techniques in the latter half of his run, while rationalizing intentionally missed techniques in the first half of the run by saying they ‘’add up to the entertainment level of the run’’. I am not against entertainment tradeoffs at the expense of speed, however those exceptions should be made clear in the submission text, not explained away afterward (and especially not in the passive aggressive manner shown by the author). Additionally, very little attempt is made in the submission text to define what makes a run ‘’legit’’ in the authors mind, and the issue is further clouded by admitting to abusing other glitches. This lack of clear goals is the second reason this submission is rejected.

Saturn:
Dear mmbossman, the goals of this run are as clear as they can be: Completing the game with the minimal amount of items without skipping bosses and use major glitches. The explanation of "legal conditions" wasn't stated in the submission text because I expected it to be a obvious thing to anybody who knows at least a bit about Super Metroid (since those who don't, wouldn't even care to watch this run). Besides, it was explained in the discussion tread here, or here. You apparently still fail to realize that the 6% run you labeled as "true low%" skips 90% of the game and all bosses, so it can't be put into the classic low% category this run represents, that exists for almost any game.
Also, the clear majority of people have stated that they enjoyed the run and think the category is good. I'm not sure if ignoring all this people and just go by your own biased opinion is a good thing, especially for the TAS community as a whole, which because of that will miss a very unique and entertaining quality run that would only enrich this site due to the many people who would definitely be interested to see it. Too bad.

mmbossman: For my rebuttal to Saturn's complaints, see the following links: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 Link 4

Saturn:
Since we're at it, mmbossman forgot Link 5, for a clear and detailed explanation to his "multiple goal problem". Didn't seem to arrive yet, but hey, it's not too late.

Bisqwit starts concentrating on a new spell.
Bisqwit holds up a diamond and whispers the magic words "herää".
Pieces of #2136: Saturn's SNES Super Metroid "glitchless low%" in 42:37.13 surface from various positions in the ground
and come together forming a living submission!
Eww! The pieces stink like grue excrement ― hardly surprising,
considering the circumstances in which they were deposited.
Bisqwit starts concentrating on a new spell.
Bisqwit empties a bag of fairy dust at #2136: Saturn's SNES Super Metroid "glitchless low%" in 42:37.13 and sings "wunderbaum, wunderbaum".
The foul smell of #2136: Saturn's SNES Super Metroid "glitchless low%" in 42:37.13 is neutralized!
Submission 2136 has been resurrected from the dead.

Bisqwit: Decision: Submission postponed until a time we can have arbitrary goal movies without making the site unmanageable.

adelikat: Decision: rejected until a time we can have arbitrary goal movies without making the site unmanageable

Nach: Since the above has now come to fruition, accepting.
feos: Processing.......


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Player (206)
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Yeah Kej, the 0,0000323% chance was what you calculated me back in 2006 when I got 11 Supers from 12 in my old RBO run on the first attempt (as you all know I managed to get 12 of 12 in the 2nd as seen in the 3rd teaser). For those who wonder, the reason I didn't got 12 in this run is because the last, 6th, drop of each pirate takes a while until appearing unlike the first 5, so I would have to sacrifice some time to get them. Luckily the 10 drops sufficed for a full Super restore anyway.
Kejardon wrote:
While I would like a run that didn't worry so much about speed and showed off instead, that's not the focus for this site. Even if only the minutes show at the end screen it's not as though the seconds and frames don't exist.
There were many situations where entertainment was prefered over speed, even on this site. My 2 SSF2 movies are a prime example of this. And of course the seconds and frames still exist, it's just that most people (like you, as you stated) won't care about them when watching the video anyway. Cpadolf: As you said, Phantoon, and the Elite Pirates (both of which I have already passed at the time hero released his new any% WIP on Snes9x 1.51) were the main reason I didn't want to restart just to save a few frames in the end. As said, there would be a high chance that I would lose time in the new run, simply because the manipulation level is so high, that adding lag only wouldn't guarant you a optimal time without forced slowdowns there.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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He said high level of manipulation again! Egads! Does that count as filling in the blank circle in the middle for bingo? I almost have 5 in a row!
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Just to remind, the most new tricks got discovered in 2008, while I basicly finished that run in 2007 (with the exception of the last few rooms during the Zebes escape). Exception are the few tricks hero presented in his any% WIP in the later half of 2007, and yes, I indeed considered to restart after them. The reason I didn't do it is because of the excellent luck I got until then, so even including the tricks in the restarted run, there would still be a good chance that I would end up being slower due to worse refill drops in the end, so I didn't bother.
You said that there was a potential to save up to 15 seconds of the run, 90% of which was in the early part of the run. So do you really think this “high luck manipulation” is so intense that it requires more than 13.5 seconds or 810 frames?
No, that run was great and Spoofer deserves alot of respect for pulling something that hard off as a TAS newbie.
And there you go calling spoofer a noob, even though he works with some of the best SM TASers around, not to mention he has other impressive feats such as his Super Metroid Cliffhanger WIP and plenty of serious TASing ambitions so I don’t think it’s appropriate to still consider him a newbie.
But you can't compare his run to a serious, legit RBO because it uses out of room glitches, Grapple Beam etc. As you all know, I would skip both, which will force many additional challenges that have yet to be performed.
There’s nothing wrong with OOB glitches so long as you stick to the goal of the run. Should we start disallowing BLJs in a 120 star run because it uses a technique in a 0 star run?
It's actually the excact opposite, which you would know if you'd read this thread. The only person who disagreed on this is Tub.
Again, you miss the point, please look up the word subjective in the dictionary. Hopefully this'll kick in, even though I know I'm talking to a brick wall. Suppose you’re comparing the physical appearance of an apple to an orange. Both are fruits (just as both the 6% and 14% run are SM TASes) but people will have different opinions about which fruit (and thus which run) appeals to them more.
Where a bot was used to manipulate that luck (who can probaly test millions of variations in a second). It's somewhat different compared to analyzing every variation by hand like I had to.
I really have to wonder, if you’re trying to manipulate a random number generator, wouldn’t it be far more constructive to locate memory addresses and find the most efficient way to burn the RNs until you get the desired result versus weeks of trial and error?
There were many situations where entertainment was prefered over speed, even on this site. My 2 SSF2 movies are a prime example of this. And of course the seconds and frames still exist, it's just that most people (like you, as you stated) won't care about them when watching the video anyway.
This has no relevance to the SM run, as a fighting game TAS heavily prioritizes entertainment over the final time, which is why you see a SSB run get rejected to one that’s 2 minutes slower but has far greater variety. That’s certainly not the same situation as games that undergo constant frame wars, which SM would fit into. Sure you’ll argue that most SM submission have quite a few seconds of improvement, but that’s simply because of how rigorously researched SM TASing is, so there’s a large culmination of frame war tricks.
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Saturn wrote:
Yeah Kej, the 0,0000323% chance was what you calculated me back in 2006 when I got 11 Supers from 12 in my old RBO run on the first attempt
Ahhhh.... but that's still off by a factor of 100.
Saturn wrote:
And of course the seconds and frames still exist, it's just that most people (like you, as you stated) won't care about them when watching the video anyway.
Will you quit putting words into my mouth? I don't care much about the time, but I said most people here do. Every frame of time, whether the game displays it or not.
Vykan12 wrote:
I really have to wonder, if you’re trying to manipulate a random number generator, wouldn’t it be far more constructive to locate memory addresses and find the most efficient way to burn the RNs until you get the desired result versus weeks of trial and error?
Unfortunately, not really. Super Metroid's RNG has two steps: The first step is triggered every game frame, I think, and the second step is triggered every time the RNG is called (generally, every time a random number is used + 1 per real-time frame minus lag frames). I'd have to research that first step, and even if it works in sync with the second step the fact you have two independent steps affecting the seed drastically complicates the RNG.
kwinse wrote:
Kejardon wrote:
Kriole wrote:
Samus is damaged by a Rinka in the opening.
That's a script action; no damage. ... it just dawned on me I know way too much about SM.
It took THAT to make you realize?
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its a pitty that this run couldn't be published at all (without rating the discussions of this thread and the flame/whine/etc its good work at all,just my opinion) well saturn dont give up just continue tasing ;)
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I have to seriously disagree with the rejecting of this run.
Considering that the previous 14% run was left unimproved for 4 years
Stupid reasoning. Zelda 1 2nd quest didn't get a new run for almost 4.5 years (#8, the last published run, was posted 2004-05-13 while it's successor was posted 2008-10-16)
When compared to the three currently published "non-glitched" runs, this movie provides very little additional entertainment value for viewers who do not closely follow Super Metroid techniques and tricks.
While there is an interesting trick done in the 6% run, it's EXTREMELY BORING TO WATCH. Honestly, who wants to spend 10 minutes watching Samus turn left turn right, and slowly creep up while doing the X-Ray beam? Honestly, as a Super Metroid fan, I was disgusted with that. It was boring. 14% is better because it pushes a runner to the limits while still being entertaining to watch. It gives a real sense of completeness that the 6% fails to do. It's ENTERTAINING. Isn't that the purpose of this site? I'm sorry, but I have to say this because while I may not agree with some things, the rejection reasoning is something I REALLY can't stand and feel I have to say something. All I can do is hope that this doesn't fall on deaf ears.
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Sir VG wrote:
Considering that the previous 14% run was left unimproved for 4 years
Stupid reasoning. Zelda 1 2nd quest didn't get a new run for almost 4.5 years (#8, the last published run, was posted 2004-05-13 while it's successor was posted 2008-10-16)
Nice to see somebody agrees with my thoughts too. I just didn't feel like posting them because of the point I'll explain last.
When compared to the three currently published "non-glitched" runs, this movie provides very little additional entertainment value for viewers who do not closely follow Super Metroid techniques and tricks.
While there is an interesting trick done in the 6% run, it's EXTREMELY BORING TO WATCH. Honestly, who wants to spend 10 minutes watching Samus turn left turn right, and slowly creep up while doing the X-Ray beam? Honestly, as a Super Metroid fan, I was disgusted with that. It was boring. 14% is better because it pushes a runner to the limits while still being entertaining to watch. It gives a real sense of completeness that the 6% fails to do. It's ENTERTAINING. Isn't that the purpose of this site?
I would be genuinely surprised if more than 3 people watched that segment without holding down the fastforward button. It's basically the SM64 problem all over again; a run that shows nothing removes all of the gameplay except a few small bits, leaving a run that actually shows part of the game to be forgotten and rejected if anybody actually tries to improve it.
I'm sorry, but I have to say this because while I may not agree with some things, the rejection reasoning is something I REALLY can't stand and feel I have to say something. All I can do is hope that this doesn't fall on deaf ears.
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
*065402 <Tub> yay, extend the flame-wars to the submission-text! *065847 <adelikat> yeah, OBVIOUS *065853 <adelikat> why explain such things *065910 <theenglishman> just ignore the cunt for once *065915 <adelikat> and how could anyone think that skipping 90% of the game is not a true low% *070728 <Stickie> hahahaha! FUCK YOU SATURN! *070732 <Stickie> what a douche *070738 <Stickie> thank god bossy rejected that *071528 <theenglishman> mmbossman is my hero now :D
Not that I necessarily like Saturn (far from it, rest assured) but you really can't deny that there is probably tiny bit of bias. Hell, just look though this thread at all the Saturn hate. Besides, what better way to put your anti-Saturn tastes into action by rejecting his movie? Personally, I don't really care either way; I'm just throwing some things out there to consider.
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adelikat
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I just want to say I support mmbossman's decision here. He had to make a tough call, and I think his reasoning is valid. In comparison to the 4 published movies, this has little to offer. The category is vague, is not the lowest% possible, and the criteria requires a subject decision as to what glitches can or cant' be used. In general, such categories are problematic and frowned up on this site. For the most part this is a movie for those speedrunner/TASers that might be interested in, but for a general audience, it is just more of the same. Again, TASvideos has always tried to favor movies for a general audience and not those that are for a specific circle Also, this situation kind of reminds me of the CCCLess SM64 run. I also am of the opinion that the low% movie that is published is more entertaining than this.
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The category is vague, is not the lowest% possible, and the criteria requires a subject decision as to what glitches can or cant' be used. In general, such categories are problematic and frowned up on this site.
Then I guess that the Zelda 2 movies will want to have a talk with you. Any% without a certain glitch, Any% with (although it's more like low%). You know, heaven forbid we remove a glitch that takes an hour to perform but makes the game longer (oops, Murder Beam!)
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adelikat
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The difference between those movies is that one doesn't use the key combo L+R or U+D. That is a pretty non-subjective category, if you ask me.
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"Everyone hates him! So that must have been the reason for rejection!" right xkeeper, right. Or just maybe it's actually the reasons posted in this thread (right between the flames) or in the rejection message.
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adelikat wrote:
The difference between those movies is that one doesn't use the key combo L+R or U+D. That is a pretty non-subjective category, if you ask me.
Then up next: these movies. There are other pairs. Even then, what is the difference between how the glitch is done and what the glitch accomplishes? As it is, they both putz right though walls and skip a majority of the game by doing so.
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And in this case, one doesn't travel through walls with the X-Ray Scope and another does. I don't see much of a difference, but meh.
Kirby said so, so it must be true. ( >'.')>
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Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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In my opinion it was objectively judged. For me, a regular player who doesn't have in-depth knowledge of Super Metroid, the goals seem kind of confusing for following reasons: 1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes. I haven't watched the TAS yet, but I certainly will. I'm sure it' a good run, but I don't expect to see anything groundbreaking that would make this new category valid for publishing.
<adelikat> I've been quoted with worse
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Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes.
I will definitely vote for denouncing a judge, who does this kind of stuff! The case is not obvious to me, though. Could you please tell me what was so special about this particular author that his run was rejected? (A list of behavioral characteristics will suffice.)
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Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
Be honest here... was there any way this movie could have been rejected without you saying "It was because of me, and not because of the movie"? I think some pretty valid reasons were given, and Bablo just stated them again:
Bablo wrote:
1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
Are there any good arguments against this? The glitch being boring is not really a good argument, as there are three other Super Metroid runs. Edit:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author. <irc quotes>
None of your quotes came from the person who actually rejected the movie...
Sir_VG
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3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
You're right. We don't. Therefore this should have kicked out the 6% run with the tag "trades time for entertainment value". Problem solved. I know a lot of people won't agree with that. 6% is the real low%! Yeah, but honestly, why are you willing to watch a boring run? I honestly think that the 14% run is entertaining because of what Saturn has done despite the limitations. Outside of a little bit of the MB fight, the boss fights were not boring. Whereas the 6% run, I was constantly bored. I suppose others could use the theory against me with other games, like Zelda 2, Zelda LA, SM64, and others. But all I can say to that is you have to take things on a case-by-case basis. And in the case of SM low%, I give it to 14% over 6%.
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I will definitely vote for denouncing a judge, who does this kind of stuff! The case is not obvious to me, though. Could you please tell me what was so special about this particular author that his run was rejected? (A list of behavioral characteristics will suffice.)
Just read the damn thread. There's so much bitching and whining between Saturn and others that it's mind-boggling, and this occured in the SM thread before too.
I think some pretty valid reasons were given, and Bablo just stated them again:
Bablo wrote:
1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
Are there any good arguments against this? The glitch being boring is not really a good argument, as there are three other Super Metroid runs.
If the glitch is so boring, then why include it in the first place? The previous low% worked fine.
Edit:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author. <irc quotes>
None of your quotes came from the person who actually rejected the movie...
The point here was the community at large. It isn't exactly a surprise that a lot of people here really don't like Saturn.
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Xkeeper: Since you are so fond of linking to movies - how about this one? This category was obsoleted before Saturn ever submitted this movie.
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Baxter wrote:
I think some pretty valid reasons were given, and Bablo just stated them again:
Bablo wrote:
1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
Are there any good arguments against this?
There are (repeating what was said many times before): 1. The 6% is a NBMB (no-boss-mini-boss) run that skips a major part of the game using gamebreaking glitches. It's not a true low% category as we know it from many other games because of that, while the 14% has a long history in the SM speedrun community, and is accepted as the official low% there. 2. It only uses minor glitches that "all" 3 other, legit runs currently published on this site (100%, and both any%s) do as well (mainly the Zebetite skip and the ghost through solid blocks tech as seen in WS). They can't be compared to "gamebreaking", major glitches that allow to skip most parts of the game, including bosses, and I'm really surprised that some people still don't get this huge and obvious difference. 3. The 14% category was a solid one that existed before the 6% TAS came out. It got obsoleted for no good reason by a run that aims for "completely" different goals, as stated in the first 2 points. Besides, the amount of categories doesn't matter as long as they present solid, unique goals, which the 14% one certainly does. It's in fact perfectly suited for TASes due to it's difficulty and therefore the many advanced techs it shows that you won't ever see in a unassisted run. The 6% category is of course unique in itself as well, so it also deserves it's place here. In the end it would only be better for this site the more unique runs with solid goals it can present, as it would get more audience because of that. DarkKobold: Look at point 3.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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While they're is little doubt that some people have given the movie lower ratings than they would have normally given had it been submitted by a different author. I don't think it affected the overall judgement of the movie, after all a judge would almost certainly be stripped of his judging priviligies if there was strong enough evidence that a neglible factor made him (or her) decide differently. I'm not very clear on the authors defintion of legal conditions given that the run isn't a true low%. While the protagonist of the run main point was "the other run uses a really long boring glitch". I think the other catagories pretty much show what this run attempts so show. My main gripe with this category is that it's 1. Too simalar to the any% non glitched run. 2. Has really long, boring drawn out boss battles which demonstrate no variety.
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Saturn wrote:
the 14% has a long history in the SM speedrun community, and is accepted as the official low% there
It was accepted at the low% here, until we learned it wasn't the lowest percentage possible after all, which is what matters.
Saturn wrote:
The 14% category was a solid one that existed before the 6% TAS came out. It got obsoleted for no good reason by a run that aims for "completely" different goals
Even if it had completely different goals, it still obsoleted it, since it made the 14% obsolete. It's aim was to get the lowest % possible, and it turned out there was a possible input sequence which make the percentage lower. We also don't have a 16 star category at super mario 64 anymore.
Saturn wrote:
Besides, the amount of categories doesn't matter as long as they present solid, unique goals, which the 14% one certainly does.
A 15% run is equally solid and unique, and also equally arbitrary. The amount of categories does matter actually, as mmbossman quoted in the submission text.
Baxter wrote:
Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
Be honest here... was there any way this movie could have been rejected without you saying "It was because of me, and not because of the movie"?
Could you adress this as well?
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Wall of text ahead, beware.
Sir VG wrote:
I have to seriously disagree with the rejecting of this run.
Considering that the previous 14% run was left unimproved for 4 years
Stupid reasoning. Zelda 1 2nd quest didn't get a new run for almost 4.5 years (#8, the last published run, was posted 2004-05-13 while it's successor was posted 2008-10-16)
Zelda 1 also does not have the intense competition between a small group of people that Super Metroid exhibits. LoZ currently has two categories, and the first quest run was updated a total of twice in the same timespan. Compare that to SM, which has had two new categories added, and a total of 7-9 improvements (depending on how you count) published over the same 4 year span, not including the "any%, glitched" category. In a subset of this community as outspoken and visible as the Super Metroid TASers, clearly the 14% run was the least favored.
When compared to the three currently published "non-glitched" runs, this movie provides very little additional entertainment value for viewers who do not closely follow Super Metroid techniques and tricks.
While there is an interesting trick done in the 6% run, it's EXTREMELY BORING TO WATCH. Honestly, who wants to spend 10 minutes watching Samus turn left turn right, and slowly creep up while doing the X-Ray beam? Honestly, as a Super Metroid fan, I was disgusted with that. It was boring. 14% is better because it pushes a runner to the limits while still being entertaining to watch. It gives a real sense of completeness that the 6% fails to do. It's ENTERTAINING. Isn't that the purpose of this site?
I intentionally compared this run to the other three "non-glitched" publications. As I stated in my rejection text, this movie does not offer a significantly greater amount of variation from the aforementioned runs, or at least not enough, in my opinion, to resurrect a dead branch of the run.
Xkeeper wrote:
I would be genuinely surprised if more than 3 people watched that segment without holding down the fastforward button. It's basically the SM64 problem all over again; a run that shows nothing removes all of the gameplay except a few small bits, leaving a run that actually shows part of the game to be forgotten and rejected if anybody actually tries to improve it.
There is one major difference between this game and Super Mario 64: Super Metroid already has 3 other runs published in addition to the glitched run. There is clearly no dearth of Super Metroid material already on the site.
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm sorry, but I have to say this because while I may not agree with some things, the rejection reasoning is something I REALLY can't stand and feel I have to say something. All I can do is hope that this doesn't fall on deaf ears.
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
While I doubt that there is any way that I will convince you that I judged this objectively, I tried to provide rationale for my reasoning. My dislike of Saturn is obvious, but I assure you that I did not base my decision on who he is, or how he has carried himself in the past. Everyone deserves a fair chance to have their submissions impartially judged, and I provided very clear reasons for why I thought this movie should be rejected. My dislike of the author did not factor into my decision.
Saturn wrote:
Xkeeper wrote:
I'm just going to come right out and suggest that this TAS's rejection is due to the author.
It's too obvious, yes. I actually thought that at least the judges on this site are already out of the age of not being able to judge something objectively, regardless of the author (as stated in the judge guidelines), but it seems I was wrong. New times, new rules, I guess.
See above^. The responsibility was yours to provide a convincing argument as to why this category should be resurrected, and you failed to do so. This is not a site that caters only to Super Metroid, and the fact that a lot of people like the game does not mean that every category is an appropriate one. Despite your claims that there are enormous amounts of new tricks, I (as a casual SM watcher/player) was only able to spot one or two. The rest of the movie felt very comparable to the two "any%" runs that we already have published.
Bablo wrote:
In my opinion it was objectively judged. For me, a regular player who doesn't have in-depth knowledge of Super Metroid, the goals seem kind of confusing for following reasons: 1) There is already a low% TAS published. 2) Doesn't use glitches, except it does? 3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes. I haven't watched the TAS yet, but I certainly will. I'm sure it' a good run, but I don't expect to see anything groundbreaking that would make this new category valid for publishing.
Thank you for your input as another casual SM player.
Sir VG wrote:
3) I don't see a reason to make a fifth category for Super Metoid TASes.
You're right. We don't. Therefore this should have kicked out the 6% run with the tag "trades time for entertainment value". Problem solved. I know a lot of people won't agree with that. 6% is the real low%! Yeah, but honestly, why are you willing to watch a boring run? I honestly think that the 14% run is entertaining because of what Saturn has done despite the limitations. Outside of a little bit of the MB fight, the boss fights were not boring. Whereas the 6% run, I was constantly bored. I suppose others could use the theory against me with other games, like Zelda 2, Zelda LA, SM64, and others. But all I can say to that is you have to take things on a case-by-case basis. And in the case of SM low%, I give it to 14% over 6%.
I can use the counter-argument that the 14% run has very slow boss fights, which make it much more boring to watch. When coupled with the same amount running from room to room, plus more door transitions, I think that the 6% is more entertaining overall. Clearly we have different opinions, and you are free to express yours. I stand by my decision, however.
Saturn wrote:
1. The 6% is a NBMB (no-boss-mini-boss) run that skips a major part of the game using gamebreaking glitches. It's not a true low% category as we know it from many other games because of that, while the 14% has a long history in the SM speedrun community, and is accepted as the official low% there.
As I have said before, this is not a site dedicated to Super Metroid Speedrunning. Although you claim that the 6% run is "not a true low%", I fully disagree, and at least I can provide rationale for my view (6 is lower than 14, afterall). Your justification for the 14% run seems to be that it's legit simply because it can be done without the use of tools, and I don't believe that makes an interesting category for a TAS.
Saturn wrote:
3. The 14% category was a solid one that existed before the 6% TAS came out. It got obsoleted for no good reason by a run that aims for "completely" different goals, as stated in the first 2 points. Besides, the amount of categories doesn't matter as long as they present solid, unique goals, which the 14% one certainly does. It's in fact perfectly suited for TASes due to it's difficulty and therefore the many advanced techs it shows that you won't ever see in a unassisted run. The 6% category is of course unique in itself as well, so it also deserves it's place here. In the end it would only be better for this site the more unique runs with solid goals it can present, as it would get more audience because of that.
It doesn't aim for "completely different goals", it aims for fastest time, period. As a byproduct, it also produces a true low % run. Your goals of "fastest time, except without using OOB glitches, and with picking up as few items as possible" is on the border between excessive and ridiculous. Factor in the fact that you don't actually complete this run in the fastest time possible, due to intentionally wasting time in the first half of the run, means that you weren't even able to satisfy your own goals. The fact that you later decide to call this omissions "entertainment/speed tradeoffs" shows me that you could not make up your mind as to which goals you really wanted to follow, so you figured that a combination of both would suffice. In the end, my judgment did not come from any one factor (i.e. unoptimized play, poor game choice, etc). It came from a summation of all the factors which I laid out in the judgment, and have elaborated upon here: 1) Poor and semi-arbitrary goal choice, 2) inability to reach those goals (due to the aforementioned entertainment/speed tradeoffs), 3) an abundance of Super Metroid material already published, and 4) an inability for this run to provide reasonably different material from those movie already published. All these factors contributed to my judgment, and lest I be accused of not addressing this, my personal feelings towards Saturn did NOT play a part in my decision. Any more comments or criticisms will be answered as they arrive.
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Baxter wrote:
It was accepted at the low% here, until we learned it wasn't the lowest percentage possible after all, which is what matters.
Look, the 6% run is a NBMB run that has his own goals. The fact that this run doesn't fight bosses and skips major parts of the game makes the %-number completely irrelevant. It could beat the game via a hacked sram trick with even 0% by triggering the Zebes escape sequence right at the beginning, and it still wouldn't count as a low%. The classic low% beats the game just like any other any% / 100% does: without skipping bosses etc., and thus it's accepted as the official low% in the SM community. Ask anybody else there if you need a confirmation.
Baxter wrote:
A 15% run is equally solid and unique, and also equally arbitrary.
A 15% run collects one more item than necessary to legally beat (without skipping bosses and major parts of the game) the game with the lowest amount of items, thus it's not a solid goal, just like a 16-99% run (except the any%) is.
Baxter wrote:
Could you adress this as well?
If it would get rejected for a good reason not against the majority of the audience, and the obvious facts, then yes.
mmbossman wrote:
When coupled with the same amount running from room to room, plus more door transitions, I think that the 6% is more entertaining overall.
With what you are clearly in the minority as seen in the thread. Does it provide you the right to ignore the majority of the audience and just go by your personal tastes? I don't think this happened before here.
mmbossman wrote:
Your justification for the 14% run seems to be that it's legit simply because it can be done without the use of tools, and I don't believe that makes an interesting category for a TAS.
No, my justification for the 14% run being the legit low% is, once again, "because it doesn't skip 90% of the game and every single boss".
mmbossman wrote:
The fact that you later decide to call this omissions "entertainment/speed tradeoffs" shows me that you could not make up your mind as to which goals you really wanted to follow, so you figured that a combination of both would suffice.
My 2 main goals were to get the lowest possible completion time on the game clock, while still beating the game without ever entering the pause screen except when unavoidable to increase entertainment and shorten the realtime count. Both of which I have succeeded.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
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