Post by Warp

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:24 PM

Post subject: Remove the voting process for submissions

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

From the latest events it has become quite clear that the whole voting process of submissions has become a total farce. Judges are ignoring popular opinion and accepting/rejecting submissions on their own whim, completely regardless of how positive or negative feedback the submission gets. So what do we need the voting system for at all? If judges are going to overrule popular opinion anyways, then voting is a complete waste of time, and a complete mockery of the people who go through the trouble of watching the submissions and voting on them. So either: 1) stop the elitist bullshit and start actually listening to what people have to say, and start acting consistently on your judging, or 2) remove the voting process, because it's a joke. And not even a funny one. If you remove the voting process then people will at least not have the misconception that their opinion matters the least bit. Just publish whatever you want to publish and keep the site as the personal collection of the judges' favorite runs.

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:29 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (433)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

I think you are taking this way too seriously. I also think you are actually causing more damage than helping this site with your endless arguments.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:35 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

I'm afraid the majority of active users have already stopped paying attention to your arguments, Warp. Which is a pity, I'd say.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:38 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

AngerFist wrote:

I think you are taking this way too seriously. I also think you are actually causing more damage than helping this site with your endless arguments.

Don't you think people making submissions are not going to get discouraged when they get a slap in the face when a single judge rejects their submission because he finds it boring, regardless of all the positive feedback from other people? Fine, if this is the official position of the site, then the admins should at least have the decency of making it official, rather than giving the illusion that voting actually matters. At least then it would stop being hypocritical.

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:44 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (433)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Warp, voting is supposed to give the judges guidance, not telling them what to decide. Mind you, again, adelikat's new super mario bros run recieved 52% yes votes (37 people), while 10 people voted no (14%) and 24 people voted meh, which in my book means they are pretty neutral about the run. So who are you really representing and arguing for?

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:55 PM

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Comicalflop

Editor, Experienced player (730)

Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA

So, does the Madou rejection thing happen on a daily basis, or did it just happen once?

☣ Homepage ☣ Retired

Posted: 5/3/2009 7:58 PM

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Kirkq

Player (208)

Joined: 7/7/2006
Posts: 798
Location: US

I can't believe no one has mentioned these submissions: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7903 http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7902 How could the judges have the nerve to reject these?

Twitch Stream, Twitter, Youtube, TASVideos Profile

Posted: 5/3/2009 8:33 PM

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mz

Player (79)

Joined: 10/26/2007
Posts: 693

If someone wants to lend a server to start a new democratic TAS community, drop me a PM. Just kidding, just kidding... Er... So, I don't have much to say. I already exposed my point of view about this issue here:

mz wrote:

-Elitist judging system that motivate people to keep TASing the same 5 or so games over and over again (Zelda, Sonic, Mario, Megaman, Metroid, etc.). No one wants to waste months of his life just to see his work rejected only because the judge in turn has never played your game before and he doesn't find it entertaining. And let's not talk about waiting 65 months to see a run accepted, when it should be much faster if we didn't have this stupid elitist system with just a couple of judges.

That was more than a month ago. Sadly, things don't seem to get any better; on the contrary, they just seem to be getting worse. I think this might have something to do with the way I used to express my ideas, so you may want to wait until your mind is cooler and only then start complaining about the system (preferably with a couple of constructive ideas too).

You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.

Posted: 5/3/2009 8:50 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

For every movie you find where I rejected a movie with a majority of yes votes, I could find 2 where I found it boring, voted no, and accepted it anyway. If we are looking for examples of my hypocricy, I'm sure we can find many examples. If you want I can help you look through old submissions and find them and link them here. I'm not sure how productive this would be though. Given the number of submissions & years I've been at this, and the subjective nature of things, it would be hard not to contradict oneself at some point. The premise here seems to be that if one goes against the grain once, or contradicts himself once, then votes don't matter and he doesn't listen. I'd like to reject that notion. Votes sway judges to one decision or another far more often than they don't. I think even debating that is ridiculous.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 5/3/2009 9:23 PM

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Kyrsimys

Former player

Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1286
Location: Finland

Oh come on Warp, this is just stupid and you know it, stop acting like a child. Let me correct this persistent delusion a lot of the people here seem to have. THIS SITE IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. The voting system is there to let the judges know what people think. That's all. If it influences their decisions, fine. If it doesn't, also fine. You say the voting system is a joke because you seem to assume that if the voting results are positive, publishing the movie is guaranteed. If this really was the case, I'd understand you being hurt that your voice was not heard. But since this is NOT the case (and you really, REALLY should know it by now), suck it up.

Posted: 5/3/2009 10:05 PM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

Warp, I've always said that I put more value in the comments that people write, as opposed to the actual votes in the poll. However, for runs of obscure games, a submission can stay in the queue for 3 or 4 months and only garner two or three comments. Voting has a place, but user provided feedback has much more value. I also have accepted several movies that I found boring as hell, but that other people liked. If I were doing my job for my own personal "favorites" page, I would probably never accept any japanese NES games. You have to get over the fact that things can't be perfect, and that we're all human. If you don't like a decision, that's fine, but you said more than enough in the NSMB thread, and were answered completely. If those answers failed to meet your standards, then that sucks. But life goes on. Get over it.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 5/3/2009 11:41 PM

Post subject: Re: Remove the voting process for submissions

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1637)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Warp wrote:

From the latest events it has become quite clear that the whole voting process of submissions has become a total farce.

Lets look at the FACTS of the latest events - 1. It is at 52% yes, for publication - forgetting history for the moment - that means that the judge made a decision WITH the MAJORITY of the populace. This is what you are CRYING didn't happen. 2. Now lets look at history - I don't see you, WARP, in the thread bitching, moaning, or complaining for poor Madou Mandogari. In fact, there are only 3 people in that thread saying ANYTHING positive about that run. So, where were you crawling up on the cross when the populace was ACTUALLY being ignored? 3. Where are these other runs that were rejected with massive yes votes? OoT? Not published for being slower than a speedrun. The "low% non-glitched except where it uses glitches" Super Metroid? Vague goals. The majority of 'Yes Voted' TASes were rejected for direct, measurable conflicts with the rules. 4. We have Judges. Not electorates. The designation has ALWAYS been that THEY make the choices, the users just 'vote' and comment. This is why the question, for the LONGEST time, was 'Did you enjoy watching this movie?'

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 5/4/2009 2:40 AM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

As noted, this isn't a democracy, nor is it a dictatorship. It's a community. People aren't always going to do what you want! The correct thing to do if you don't agree with someone's action is to make your objections known, without being inflammatory. Make whatever arguments you like, and let the people who don't agree with you make their arguments, then drop the subject. This pointless bickering back and forth does nothing except make people angry and drive them away from the community. It has got to stop. If it becomes clear that you have fundamental disagreements with someone else (which should be obvious after a handful of posts going back and forth), you need to stop arguing with them. What's it supposed to accomplish? People aren't rational; you aren't magically going to change their minds just by phrasing your opinion the right way. Come back in six months and try again if you still feel strongly about it; that's time enough for people to change their minds. This is general advice, for everyone. It just happens to apply, right now, to Warp, and a few others.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 5/4/2009 4:10 AM
(Edited: 5/4/2009 4:14 AM)

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sixofour

Banned User

Joined: 5/2/2009
Posts: 121

1. Removing voting. Keep the judge system, where they decide what goes and what does not, their word is law. Or. 2. No publication system, at all. Each movie is given a torrent which is then uploaded by the author or a seeder. A ranking system is put in place, to let your average person know what is worth watching and what is not. So in the first option, its the judged decision, you can't cry about it, because you knew how the game was played before hand, there are no "variables". You submit a movie, and you accept that the judges, for any reason what so ever, can accept or reject the video. This option would only involve removing the votes. In the second option, there is no publication system at all. For a movie to be added to the pool only requires that you seed it [or provide an ftp host yourself] And the good and bad are separated by a ranking system. This option would change the layout and system of the site of course. This option would be pretty much like youtube except you have to download the video. I mention this because the current system, of judges making the final say, but people still begin able to vote...gives people the notion that voting means something. but it doesn't, the judges do not have to act in any way based on the vote the game run got. In each system is a way of supporting popular movies, and burying unpopular movies. On one hand its up to a small council, on the other its up to the people. Pick your flavor.

[00:31:12] <stickie> by the way, thanks for the sig sixofour [00:31:23] <sixofour> dejavu [00:31:25] <sixofour> what sig? [00:31:55] <stickie> you will just have to find out *insert mystical music*

Posted: 5/4/2009 4:12 AM

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Sticky

Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1360
Location: Minnesota

No.

adelikat wrote:

I very much agree with this post.

Bobmario511 wrote:

Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.

Posted: 5/4/2009 2:34 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

I have to admit that I let my feelings overwhelm my common sense, and made the post without thinking it through. The situation is certainly not even near as bad as I depicted, and I blew it out of proportion. I apologize if I insulted anyone. However, I still feel that the "rules" of the site are quite vague, which sometimes can lead to inconsistent behavior. I think it would be much clearer if eg. when a submission is rejected, the reason could be stated like "it does not fully comply to rule #x", rather than "I found this boring". People say that this is not a democracy. However, would it be a really bad thing if this was slightly more a democracy?

Posted: 5/4/2009 2:41 PM

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theenglishman

Active player (441)

Joined: 3/21/2006
Posts: 940
Location: Toronto, Canada

The voting process is one of the most nerve-wracking, yet intensely rewarding events the site has to offer. I can't tell you how often seeing my run judged on the workbench has inspired me to work harder (that horrible Asterix run for one) or become immensely proud of my run like a parent seeing his child perform at a recital (my SoT improvement). Whether or not it's truly ethical or democratic, voting and judging is the emotional payoff (or burnout) that TASing is all about. I say keep it.

My current project: Something mysterious (oooooh!) My username is all lower-case letters. Please get it right :(

Posted: 5/4/2009 2:42 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

Warp wrote:

I have to admit that I let my feelings overwhelm my common sense, and made the post without thinking it through. The situation is certainly not even near as bad as I depicted, and I blew it out of proportion. I apologize if I insulted anyone. However, I still feel that the "rules" of the site are quite vague, which sometimes can lead to inconsistent behavior. I think it would be much clearer if eg. when a submission is rejected, the reason could be stated like "it does not fully comply to rule #x", rather than "I found this boring". People say that this is not a democracy. However, would it be a really bad thing if this was slightly more a democracy?

Thank you for this calm, well worded, and constructive post. I actually don't particularly disagree with anything here (nor do I agree either, yet). These are definately some points worth discussing. Also thank you for the apology. (Apology accepted might be a better wording here except it implies that you indeed insulted me, which I don't feel you did, or something, meh)

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 5/4/2009 3:18 PM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

Thanks for the apology Warp, it is certainly appreciated.

Warp wrote:

However, I still feel that the "rules" of the site are quite vague, which sometimes can lead to inconsistent behavior. I think it would be much clearer if eg. when a submission is rejected, the reason could be stated like "it does not fully comply to rule #x", rather than "I found this boring".

As Bisqwit mentioned in that other mess of a thread, we have some hard and fast rules, but we also have the guidelines for what makes a good TAS. When the rules are broken, I will very clearly list in the rejection message which rules were violated, and where to find them (via link). When the guidelines are not met, I will almost always convey why I think the particular run does not meet them (i.e. not very entertaining, not a good game choice, etc.). Yes, these can be somewhat ambiguous, but if you've been around enough, you start to see some patterns emerge, such as fighting games only being good as playarounds, and racing games only being entertaining if they're extremely glitched. If the process was more rules based, we'd lose a lot of the flexibility in judging, which I do believe is a bad thing. You may disagree, but if you need some more clarification, I can expand when I'm not hurrying off to work. Again, thanks for being more level-headed about it all.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 5/5/2009 6:46 PM

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Pikachu

Former player

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 88

Noob here. I think voting should be removed, not because of what Warp said. But votes by themselves are useless, if anyone likes or dislikes a movie, they can say so in a post. And the judges can read them.

Posted: 5/5/2009 6:51 PM

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nineko

Banned User

Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy

I think Warp is right, votes should be removed. Clue has a 73% of yes votes, and adelikat wants to reject it after he approved his own NSMB movie which had much more controversy and only 52% of yes votes. Almost a viewer out of 2 didn't like that movie, yet it's on the site. The site which is supposed to provide entertainment to us, the final users. There is something wrong here.

Gone.

Posted: 5/5/2009 6:53 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

I said (in irc) I wasnt' going to publish it, because I think it sucks. Notice how I haven't rejected it nor did I say I planned to. I haven't even looked at the percentages yet. If someone else accepts it and publishes it, so be it. I feel like this is turning into a witch hunt. You people need to chill out.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 5/5/2009 6:59 PM

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nineko

Banned User

Joined: 8/2/2008
Posts: 420
Location: italy

Just don't turn this website from tasvideos to adelivideos. If people are allowed to speak their mind, listen to them. You already have a selection of movies in your signature, don't use the whole website for your own pleasure.

Gone.

Posted: 5/5/2009 7:03 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

Perhaps you need to not overreact to a judgement I haven't even made. I've published a lot of movies I didn't care for, and some that downright sucked in my opinon. I've also rejected movies I thought should have been published. Seems everytime 1 decision someone doesn't like (or in this case, one possible decision) you jump to the extreme that I don't listen to anybody. I think I'm done defending myself on this point.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects