This seems to bring up a lot of debate in individual game topics whenever someone wants to do a run with 'NG+' mechanics - using pre-existing save data to start a new game, but some data erroneously mixed in from the save, allowing for a faster run that is still 'new game'. I think a general ruling should be made for how such runs should be treated - are they technically any%? A new category? Should not be accepted?
To facilitate this I'm going to post as many examples of 'NG+' mechanics as I'm aware of in speedruns. Feel free to post ones you know of too.
Donkey Kong 64 - The 'Funky Weapons Glitch' requires a cart where you've EVER beaten the game on - even if you erase all save files, it still works. It lets you start a new game with the abilities of a multiplayer match already unlocked - weapons and sniper scope, notably. There is also a way to partially glitch completion from a save file onto a new game run, which is only allowed in 106% glitched/max% glitched categories and not in any%. https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Donkey_Kong_64#Funky_Weapons_Glitch
Ocarina of Time 3D: The category called 'NG+' allows you to start a new game with any item glitched onto B - popular choices are farore's wind for any% and megaton hammer for MST. This is done by using the bottle adventure glitch on a save file to get the item you want on B on B first. http://zeldaspeedruns.com/oot3d/ng/creating-a-ng-file
Crash Bandicoot 2: A glitch discovered today allows you to start a new game in warp zone 4, the category has been called NG+ (NG+ any% or NG+ 100%).
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night: It is possible to transfer the level of the sword 'Muramasa' from a save file to a new game run. I don't know of the specifics, just that ForgoneMoose & arukado plan on using it for the new any% TAS and it has apparently been OK'd for use.
Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest: The 'resistance bug' lets you start a new game where character 2 keeps some traits of the equipment of character 2 from a previous save file. It is used in RTA categories.
Diddy Kong Racing: It is possible to transfer the fact that Future Fun Land (the last area of the game) is open from a separate save file then, from a new game, use OoB glitches to immediately go there and beat the final boss. A TAS of this category was rejected: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13743http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=338326#338326
Densetsu no Stafy: It is possible to transfer the state of a save file over to a new game, putting you at the final boss on a new game and allowing you to immediately win. A TAS of this category was rejected: http://tasvideos.org/3832S.html
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: The glitch 'Back in Time' makes it so the intro screen is playable. In this state you can also access the menus to load and save, while saving using in-game save points (because you have made the intro screen playable), allowing you to corrupt two save files together. Using this and a pre-made save file you could easily go from the first BiT to the end of the game, but all speedruns disallow using a save file made before the run has started in BiT.
Super Metroid: The post by ais523 explains this one better than I could: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=338326#338326
I think nmaster64 is responsible for the best argument on this general situation yet (over in the DKR submission thread):
nmaster64 wrote:
Take notes DKR runners:
5+ Hour Prep File, still timed. Man up.
It's possible that the DKR run would have been accepted as a newgame+ if it had a verification movie, though.
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My suggestions for the rules would be as follows:
- If you create multiple save files during the run (starting from a clean cart/memory card), with the timer running all the time, you can do what you like with them, and only have to complete the game on one of them, with no category implications (it can still be any%, etc.). This isn't going to to help for the majority of games, because it typically wastes time for no benefit, but in some games, it helps.
Example: [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12 (saves mid-game and copies the save file in order to be able to manipulate memory later on).
- If you start from a dirty save file for any reason other than unlocking characters, game modes or difficulties that would be locked on a clean save file, the run is a newgame+, and you must provide a verification movie that produces the save file in question.
Example: [1208] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 06:42.77 (uses SRAM in order to start with better items and stats than normal, as part of an intended newgame+ mechanism in the game).
Note that TASvideos currently seems to treat such runs as being part of the "Demonstration" category.
- If you start from a dirty save file merely to unlock characters, game modes or difficulty levels, the run is not a newgame+, but still requires a verification movie that produces the save file in question.
Example: [2459] DS Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow "Julius mode" by mtbRc in 09:01.49 (uses SRAM to unlock a normally locked character).
- In games with no "battery saves", you can substitute a password (for games with password saves) or savestate for a save file, with the same implications as using a save file would have, including verification movies if the password is not obtained during the run itself.
Example (savestate, different difficulty): [1607] GB Super Mario Land "hard mode" by MUGG in 12:14.77 (uses a previous completion of the game to unlock hard mode; the game does not have a battery save feature, so a savestate is needed instead).
Example (password, obtained in game): [1144] NES Metroid by Lord_Tom in 08:19.32 (you can see the password onscreen for a few frames at 2:00 in the encode; NES Metroid reuses the last obtained password when you start a game, so the runner didn't have to re-enter it; the effect of the password is to start with one boss defeated and many missiles, and thus it has to be obtained in-game to avoid making the run a newgame+).
- If a password was intended by the developer to unlock things and does not correspond to any particular save file, then it's not a save file password, but rather an entirely legitimate shortcut to set a new game mode. This is entirely unrelated to newgame+, but mentioned here to reduce confusion.
Example: [1363] PSX Castlevania: Symphony of the Night by arukAdo & pirate_sephiroth in 19:01.63 (the character name entered unlocks an alternative game mode, "luck mode", and has nothing to do with saving the game).
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I'd also like to mention that some games require trading between multiple save files to 100%. Pokémon is the most famous example, but that requires two consoles so it doesn't really count (and people have got 100% via glitches instead). A more obscure example is Hammerfight, a game I've been helping to route over at SDA: it requires trading between two save files to be able to obtain all weapons (the most obvious 100% definition for the game), but this can be done entirely within one play session, playing both games on the same computer (and using two mice in order to play them at the same time to do the trade).
Finally, there's the weird special case of [2059] SNES Mega Man X "password glitch" by FractalFusion in 16:56.88. The password entered cannot be obtained in-game via any means at all, and it glitches out the password parser in order to start with a combination of items that cannot be obtained in any other way. This is tagged as a demonstration and in a category all of its own, which I think is reasonable; it clearly doesn't follow the rules, but demonstrations are allowed to break some of the rules (that's the main unifying feature between them).
That sounds reasonable.
Would it be fair to summarize this as saying that runs should start from a blank slate (no passwords or saved games); it's generally fine to use a password or saved game if this is only done to unlock a new game mode, character, or difficulty level; other than that, exceptions can be made only if the runner can demonstrate and convince people that this is interesting enough for the site.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I agree with all of ais523's post.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
I'd like to raise another point just for clarity:
- Using dirty save file in order to skip cutscenes.
Example: Metroid Prime
Would this be considered a 'newgame+'? I know that [1759] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls, inbounds" by Kriole in 24:56.10 starts from SRAM in order to access hard mode, but also benefits from the skipable cutscenes.
I'd like to raise another point just for clarity:
- Using dirty save file in order to skip cutscenes.
Example: Metroid Prime
Would this be considered a 'newgame+'? I know that [1759] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls, inbounds" by Kriole in 24:56.10 starts from SRAM in order to access hard mode, but also benefits from the skipable cutscenes.
This is used in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night too. I'm not aware of anyone who isn't OK with it nowadays, but it should be considered as part of any overarching rulings, yes :)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
There is a NG+ for Crash 2 (This is new) but it involves a save file in Warp Room 4 (Warp Room 5 can work)
This is basically 100% NG+ for the game.
I say for TAS sake this is unacceptable run to do as it involves a save file like this run.
Edit demonstration for the curious.
Edit 2: Apparently FAQs for this exists
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
To avoid debate over what the term "new game+" means exactly, I would suggest using it if the game itself uses it. For instance, Chrono Trigger actually calls it new game+; whereas several Castlevania games simply unlock other characters, and then we call it e.g. "Julius mode".
As I understand it, "New Game+" specifically refers to replaying the "normal game" except that you get to keep some or all of the power you had when you beat the game previously. Alternate mode unlocks are, as you say, referred to by more specific terms.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
The proper branch name for the current "newgame+" TAS for SoTN shoudl be Replay. that's what the game tags it as on the save file.
Only if experience or items are carried througg is it a newgame+. You just gain the ability to skip cutscenes and buy some additional items later in SoTN.
Is it just called "Replay"? I'm thinking of calling it "Replay Mode" so it doesn't confuse viewers (since all of our movies are replays). Does that sound okay?
Note: This movie begins from a save state from the end of regular mode in order to access Hyper Sonic from the beginning of the game. There is no other way to access it outside of a hack. We normally do not accept movies which begin from a save state.
This movie has lost its meaning if it's even slower than the normal run.
That's true, but until it gets obsoleted by a faster newgame+ run or by a new any% run (with approval by the judge of said new run), we can't do anything with that movie right now.
Well, they're both in moon or star tier, and they both play radically differently (one avoids all emeralds, the other relies heavily on Super Sonic). So since both movies have good ratings for entertainment, I don't think there's any call to remove one of them.
5+ Hour Prep File, still timed. Man up.
