Super Metroid 100% Map Completion (Code Name: Shinespark Amusement Park)
This TAS aims to color in any and every map square that can be colored in. It visits places on Zebes that are normally never visited in other categories. In doing so, the primary goal of this game are met and beats the game in a non-glitched run.
Emulator used: BizHawk 1.7.0
To turn every map square to pink that can be colored pink
Accomplishes this coloring with "Never Before Seen" Shinesparks.
I am adding an extra comment that I failed to add previously !!!
My appologies for not giving credit for the 5 to 10% of code created by Cpadolf. Please don't think that I purposefully missed this. You can confirm from my previous two submissions that I give credit to CP for his optimized work. Again, this was missed by accident.
This TAS uses a variety of techniques to accomplish the goal of completing the entire map by coloring in all blue areas...pink. The route for this TAS was dramatically different from that of the human RTA WR. This change reduces the amount of "Revisits" to already colored areas. Shinesparks are primarily used to color in hard to get to places and quickly allows movement through rooms where repetitive jumping is needed. Many non-human tricks contribute to goals where frame perfect, pixel perfect, and speed perfect allowed best efforts to move quickly through areas.
This is the first known calaboration between a TASer and community. The primary contributor to my TAS was the amazing EternisedDragon, who has a deep understanding of the physics of the Super Metroid engine. Other contributors to this project include:
Straevaras, Sweetnumb, Redslash, Grommie122, Foosda, RodrigoAndrade7, Nintoaster_81, Mawcdrums, nutella4eva, Starzonmyarmz, Jronaggaz, Tewtal, Kojakt, EODTex, Anoraz_Xarona, UFabianx, JoshButro, Stigzilla, Hetfield90, Edu207, DasBlurr, OldSchoolTribe, Mishrak109, Sickents, Matrick2298, Benlake412, lxx4xNx6xxl, Lioran, BlackStarKupo, Hubert0987, Moe_187, Overfiendvip, WildAnaconda69, MartyMoinklers, RetrophileTV, Omnissam, AxlSR, sniqwc3, Nighty93, Mechashiva76, Full_Halfie, Torment99.
Shinesparks of this game:
Post Crocomire Shinespark
Watergate Shinespark (NYMX/EternisedDragon)
Post-Grapple Shinespark
Alpha Spark
Post X-Ray Shinespark
Red Tower Shinespark (NYMX)
Mote Shinespark (NYMX)
Partial Ocean Shinespark
Bowling Shinespark
Dragon Shinespark (EternisedDragon)
Maridia Shinespark I
Maridia Shinespark II (Post Spring ball)
Maridia Shinespark III
Maridia Mountain Shinespark I
Maridia Mountain Shinespark II (Common Any%)
Botwoon Swagspark
Roly Poly Skip Shinespark
Post Roly Poly Shinespark
Draygon Attack Shinespark I
Draygon Attack Shinespark II
Draygon Attack Shinespark III (Blue Suit)
Reverse Fullhalfie Shinespark
Wave Substitute Shinespark
Fast Pillars Shinespark
Pinata Shinespark, Ninja Pirates
Post Ridley Shinespark
Maridia Shinespark IV (NYMX Original)
Crateria Coloring Shinespark I
Platform Shinespark
Guanlet Shinespark
Dechora Shinespark
Charge Spark
Blue Brinstar Shinespark
Pit Shinespark
Old Tourian Shinespark
Mother Brain Death Spark (NYMX Original)
Escape Shinespark I (NYMX Original)
Escape Shinespark II
Crateria Coloring Spark II
There are many things that need to be corrected and should remove about 1 minutes and 30 seconds worth of time. These problems range in all kinds of techniques and routing problems. A follow up version will be worked on.
Final Stats:
In Game Time: 00:44
Percentage of Items Colected: 33%
TAS Time: 74:58.93
RTA Converted Time (Human comparison): 72:41.516
Beats the human record by 10:22, currently held by SweetNumb at 1:23:03.00
Noxxa: First of all, I'd like to commend NYMX and the Deer Tier community members involved with making this TAS. It is a good attempt, and it is clear that a lot of work has been put into the run. Unfortunately though, I will reject this run for publication on this site.
One thing I find problematic is the lack of description put into the submission topic, resulting in questions which are left unanswered. When it became clear that over three minutes of cpadolf's 100% run input was copied, I would really have liked to know exactly how much input and which parts were copied, and read it in the submission comments - but instead, all we got was a cryptic "5 to 10%" input by cpadolf. The important specifics are left unanswered. Requests by many people for coauthoring cpadolf for copying a significant amount of input were also ignored. We also never got any specifics in the submission text about the 90 seconds of known improvements, the routing, or 'new tricks' which were talked about. Information about these was also asked by various people including myself but again never addressed. There is a nearly four-hour commentary video on twitch.tv, so I find it weird that so little information could be given about the run in the submission text itself.
However, that is not even the major issue - the actual reason I am rejecting this run is because, quite simply, viewer feedback to the category was poor. Many people in the submission discussion disagreed with the category choice not going for 100% items, making a large part of the run look like entering through rooms and 'oddly' leaving without picking up any visible items, or otherwise entering rooms without any purpose. Obviously it's a part of this category, but it still appears odd. We understand that this is a recognised category on Deer Tier, but here on TASVideos we can only publish the categories that we deem interesting and entertaining enough, and Super Metroid is already overflowing with categories on this site as is. Deer Tier is a community dedicated to Super Metroid and we are not, so we have different standards here. If Deer Tier wishes to host this TAS on their own site, then more power to them; but the category just doesn't click with the TASVideos audience here.
The lack of optimality, particularly compared to current Super Metroid publications on this site, and compounded with the relatively large 90 seconds of known improvements, didn't help viewer response either - but I don't believe that an optimized improvement would be enough to save the category.
As such, rejecting for poor viewer feedback and bad goal choice.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Spikestuff wrote:
Don't blame me on something you did. You're defending the air (nothing).
nymx wrote:
However!, you seem to be taking 95.5886% credit for the youtube video that you posted on your channel. Where are the creators mentioned for NYMX and EternisedDragon?
Oh, you're cute. Have you properly looked at what the video is currently set as?
1. This is an unlisted temp encode.
2. It means it's going to be deleted.
3. The only public way of seeing this video is through TASVideos.
Don't give me that lip.
Well, I can only say that my past submissions where honored with the information that I provided on the last publishers youtube channel. You never wrote a thing. I just think that if you are not part of the Super Metroid community, you really don't care to participate in it's creation or support it, in the fact that no human will ever defeat this time. TASVideos, when human skills are not enough...I figured TASVideos would welcome people more openingly You may not like it, but deertier members do. If CPAdolf did this, he apparently would beat my time...and you wouldn't complain about the category when it comes to him.
I challenge you to visit our excellent runners at deertier. You apparently know more about this game and should hold a record. I'm sure they would enjoy your competition...which is what we love.
In regards to other games on this sites...I applaud them and look forward to faster times for all games.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
It has been my experience that every single thing published to this site has undergone some level of scrutiny, especially when that thing takes a game that has a speedrun and then attacks it with a new goal in mind, particularly a goal that touches on another goal.
It is not the aim of this site to look at what human players do and then do it faster. It's not, "Oh, that's a nice sand castle you built, I'm going to smash it down and you can watch me build it better."
The site's stated mission statement is:
Mission Statement wrote:
TASvideos.org is committed to providing the best in tool-assisted speedruns and superhuman play. Our runs are held to high standards, and only high quality runs will be published on the site. We also prefer quality over quantity — a poor quality run will not be accepted whether it is a game new to the site or an improvement to a pre-existing run. Our runs may not be perfect (if that is even possible), but are still high quality and aim to be as entertaining as possible.
The submission text says that 90 seconds of improvement are possible. If there are 90 known seconds of improvement, then the site publishing this would be against its stated mission.
The runs published on this site (to my knowledge) are all measurable in some way without overlapping another goal: any% aims to beat the game as quickly as possible, glitched ACE takes over the game, low% aims to beat the game with 14% collected items, 100% items collects all the items, and reverse boss order fights the bosses in reverse order. They are distinctly challenging - any% beats the game, low% has challenges on what to pick up, 100% has to determine the optimal route for pickups, glitched has to quickly and effectively deliver its payload, RBO fights the major bosses backwards. 100% map completion, in my mind, for this site, overlaps with 100% items, because you visit every item's room but ignore many of them in the process of turning the rooms pink.
Something that strikes me as odd about the run itself is that it manages to be slower than the 100% items run, suggesting that waiting through 66% items worth of the item chime delay is actually faster than touching every square of the map.
Penultimately, I would argue that coming here from another site and demanding legitimacy of your category speaks ill of wherever you are coming from and demonstrates little respect for this site. It's possible to come up with a staggeringly large number of arbitrary categories (SM: no speed boots, SM: no arm pumping, SM: only fire on even frames, SM: exclusively bomb jumps, SM: eat mashed potatoes while playing) that don't add anything to the tool-assisted community. I can completely respect human players offering human restrictions to human categories, but the site's goals are not to demonstrate superplay of every possible iteration of goal choice.
Finally, Nymx specifically, I want to call out this particular statement:
I just think that if you are not part of the Super Metroid community, you really don't care to participate in it's creation or support it, in the fact that no human will ever defeat this time.
By asking for your run to be published on this site, you are asking to be part of the tool-assisted speedrunning community here, and you are asking the people who participate in its creation to support your play. Being a part of this community includes reading the site's submission guidelines and considering the feedback of the people who watch your work. What you are doing is essentially asking for legitimacy of your run, but ignoring the spit and polish that is applied to the runs posted on the site.
I figured TASVideos would welcome people more openingly You may not like it, but deertier members do.
As to that particular statement, there is nothing stopping deertier from creating a TAS category, where you can play by their rules.
I am still the wizard that did it.
"On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata
<scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
[The submission text says that 90 seconds of improvement are possible. If there are 90 known seconds of improvement, then the site publishing this would be against its stated mission.
What would you have me do? Lie? Even CPAdolf, Saturn admitted to inefficiencies, only to be followed up by improved runs. If they are not perfect, then you should accept it. That would exclude a lot of videos. But as it stands, there is no way to determine that. If we find discrepancies all the time, videos will never get published...because it takes too much time.
100% map completion, in my mind, for this site, overlaps with 100% items, because you visit every item's room but ignore many of them in the process of turning the rooms pink. Something that strikes me as odd about the run itself is that it manages to be slower than the 100% items run, suggesting that waiting through 66% items worth of the item chime delay is actually faster than touching every square of the map.
This is an example of why the scrutiny of my TAS is harsh...If you look at Zoast's 100% Item, the time is 1:17:07 (no intro), while CPAdolf's is 1:08:15 (with intro). While SweetNumb's 100% Map Completion is 1:23:03 to my 1:14:51. Your understanding of the vastness of unexplored space is great enough that it surpasses the time for 100% Item. The same difference can be viewed. Grabbing all items along with squares would add roughly 6 more minutes to the existing.
Penultimately, I would argue that coming here from another site and demanding legitimacy of your category speaks ill of wherever you are coming from and demonstrates little respect for this site. It's possible to come up with a staggeringly large number of arbitrary categories (SM: no speed boots, SM: no arm pumping, SM: only fire on even frames, SM: exclusively bomb jumps, SM: eat mashed potatoes while playing) that don't add anything to the tool-assisted community. I can completely respect human players offering human restrictions to human categories, but the site's goals are not to demonstrate superplay of every possible iteration of goal choice.
Honestly, I don't make the categories...I just TAS it.
Finally, Nymx specifically, I want to call out this particular statement:
I just think that if you are not part of the Super Metroid community, you really don't care to participate in it's creation or support it, in the fact that no human will ever defeat this time.
This is a true statement that is buzzing already with our runners.
Perhaps you should have predefined TAS categories that you will accept...so that no open ended write-ins can be submitted. Since it is open, how are we supposed to know that you are going to shoot it down? Afterall, SM has been going strong for 21 years, and the exploration of this has been extreme. If you think that low% is not arbitrary, then how does fit with the difference low%? speedbooster, ice, iceboots...more to come. Each with something to offer that has specific challenges. Will you be obsoleting your low% videos once a 13% solution can be determined? If and when that happens, then your video should not meet your high standard of quality. In my case, how can you optimize the map traversing and not waste time? Even though I hate it that there is nothing posted at the end of the game, it requires an eagle eye to watch and determine. :(
As to that particular statement, there is nothing stopping deertier from creating a TAS category, where you can play by their rules.
Believe me, we have started that process. Deertier has been contacted to add a new heading.
It is apparent that TASVideos is at odds with our community. I suggest that you lock down submissions by having predefined categories to prevent "Arbitrary" entries.
Invariel...thank you for your time in this manner. I support the work done here on this site and look forward to more glorious TASes.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Kurabupengin wrote:
The amount of 1st post lurkers is suspicious... are we under attack?
Oh my...each of those "lurkers" are members of our Super Metroid community. Their identities are legit and can be found as active members on Deertier.com
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
This may seem like shots fired, but I think most people here are being too critical for the situation. This game has been chewed up and spit out so many times over the years because it is such a great game. But I believe that regular viewers are either burnt out on this game or have their expectations too high.
I personally like this category as it shows more of the game off, but 100% items and 100% map together would make for a better tas as it would show the game in its entirety... depending on if oob is used o not.
I dont see too many glaring issues. The rng could be manipulated a bit better to have drops that are wanted, but it was only in a few locations. Some talk about going too far into a room rather than immediately turning around I only saw 2-3 times and each time I saw justification for it, better ball speed or better space jump speed. I also see a bunch of "it is not optimized" but with nothing to point out. That is not constructive or a question as to why the author did as they did to get an explanation of some kind.
My point is if anyone is going to throw out some criticism, at least let it have a purpose rather than just blatantly throwing out hate and negativity.
As for the other issues of copy and paste other authors work is an issue for the admins. I cant say anything about that other than my opinion and believe it should be rejected on that alone.
As far as entertainment, I do feel like it could be a valid category. I enjoyed it as I was watching the map in a bunch of spots to where as during other categories I never look at the map at any point unless oob is used. That alone give the average viewer more to watch for other than the precise movements that only an experienced viewer/player would see. I give this a meh vote. I would easily given it yes vote but I cant overlook the copyright issue present.
Why should we limit potential categories? If a category is "arbitrary" (meaning it's not any% or 100%) it can only get published to Moon or Star tier and that only if people find it entertaining. If people come up with 10 more categories for SM that are all highly entertaining, then I'd say go ahead and publish them all, that's all I care about.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
nymx wrote:
[The submission text says that 90 seconds of improvement are possible. If there are 90 known seconds of improvement, then the site publishing this would be against its stated mission.
What would you have me do? Lie? Even CPAdolf, Saturn admitted to inefficiencies, only to be followed up by improved runs. If they are not perfect, then you should accept it. That would exclude a lot of videos. But as it stands, there is no way to determine that. If we find discrepancies all the time, videos will never get published...because it takes too much time.
Please note that there is a difference between submitting runs and finding improvements later, or submitting a run when you already know there's a minute and a half's worth of improvement. A publication may not be perfect, but the aim is to be as perfect as possible according to current knowledge.
And honestly, 90 seconds worth of improvements is a lot, especially for a game like Super Metroid that has been TASed to death. This being a different category than the other publications is not a good enough excuse.
nymx wrote:
This is a true statement that is buzzing already with our runners.
Perhaps you should have predefined TAS categories that you will accept...so that no open ended write-ins can be submitted. Since it is open, how are we supposed to know that you are going to shoot it down? Afterall, SM has been going strong for 21 years, and the exploration of this has been extreme. If you think that low% is not arbitrary, then how does fit with the difference low%? speedbooster, ice, iceboots...more to come. Each with something to offer that has specific challenges. Will you be obsoleting your low% videos once a 13% solution can be determined? If and when that happens, then your video should not meet your high standard of quality. In my case, how can you optimize the map traversing and not waste time? Even though I hate it that there is nothing posted at the end of the game, it requires an eagle eye to watch and determine. :(
(...)
I suggest that you lock down submissions by having predefined categories to prevent "Arbitrary" entries.
If we limited the site to only certain categories, it would be overly restrictive and people would complain. It would also automatically make us lose out on a lot of off-beat categories that turn out very entertaining, such as Super Metroid's RBO category, SMB warpless walkathon, playarounds of any sort, etc. And before you ask - no, we cannot make individual lists for every game, as that would be way too large a list to handle. Thus, we determine it by seeing whether the people find a submission entertaining. This category, people just happen to not find it entertaining. Would we have been able to see that coming? Who knows. Would rejecting a run immediately on sight if it has a category like this be a good idea overall? Probably not.
nymx wrote:
Kurabupengin wrote:
The amount of 1st post lurkers is suspicious... are we under attack?
Oh my...each of those "lurkers" are members of our Super Metroid community. Their identities are legit and can be found as active members on Deertier.com
Yeah, I want to make clear to everyone who asked me about this - I verified that the people who registered to post in this thread are legitimate. It's not an 'attack', nor is it sockpuppetry. It's just members from another community joining to debate about this run.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Heidman wrote:
This may seem like shots fired, but I think most people here are being too critical for the situation. This game has been chewed up and spit out so many times over the years because it is such a great game. But I believe that regular viewers are either burnt out on this game or have their expectations too high.
I personally like this category as it shows more of the game off, but 100% items and 100% map together would make for a better tas as it would show the game in its entirety... depending on if oob is used o not.
I dont see too many glaring issues. The rng could be manipulated a bit better to have drops that are wanted, but it was only in a few locations. Some talk about going too far into a room rather than immediately turning around I only saw 2-3 times and each time I saw justification for it, better ball speed or better space jump speed. I also see a bunch of "it is not optimized" but with nothing to point out. That is not constructive or a question as to why the author did as they did to get an explanation of some kind.
My point is if anyone is going to throw out some criticism, at least let it have a purpose rather than just blatantly throwing out hate and negativity.
As for the other issues of copy and paste other authors work is an issue for the admins. I cant say anything about that other than my opinion and believe it should be rejected on that alone.
As far as entertainment, I do feel like it could be a valid category. I enjoyed it as I was watching the map in a bunch of spots to where as during other categories I never look at the map at any point unless oob is used. That alone give the average viewer more to watch for other than the precise movements that only an experienced viewer/player would see. I give this a meh vote. I would easily given it yes vote but I cant overlook the copyright issue present.
Thanks Heidman. Your comment has been received more positively. It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected. At least you have been kind about it.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
nymx wrote:
It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected.
I'm sorry, but frankly this is a ridiculous statement. Just because people did not enjoy seeing this one category does not mean Super Metroid is "hated so much" in this community. Super Metroid has in fact the most published branches of any single game on this site, and second largest amount of publications overall (behind SMB1). There definitely is no bias against the game on this site, and I don't believe even any member who posted here actually hates the game as a whole, rather than just disliking this one category.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Heidman wrote:
This may seem like shots fired, but I think most people here are being too critical for the situation. This game has been chewed up and spit out so many times over the years because it is such a great game. But I believe that regular viewers are either burnt out on this game or have their expectations too high.
I personally like this category as it shows more of the game off, but 100% items and 100% map together would make for a better tas as it would show the game in its entirety... depending on if oob is used o not.
I dont see too many glaring issues. The rng could be manipulated a bit better to have drops that are wanted, but it was only in a few locations. Some talk about going too far into a room rather than immediately turning around I only saw 2-3 times and each time I saw justification for it, better ball speed or better space jump speed. I also see a bunch of "it is not optimized" but with nothing to point out. That is not constructive or a question as to why the author did as they did to get an explanation of some kind.
My point is if anyone is going to throw out some criticism, at least let it have a purpose rather than just blatantly throwing out hate and negativity.
As for the other issues of copy and paste other authors work is an issue for the admins. I cant say anything about that other than my opinion and believe it should be rejected on that alone.
As far as entertainment, I do feel like it could be a valid category. I enjoyed it as I was watching the map in a bunch of spots to where as during other categories I never look at the map at any point unless oob is used. That alone give the average viewer more to watch for other than the precise movements that only an experienced viewer/player would see. I give this a meh vote. I would easily given it yes vote but I cant overlook the copyright issue present.
Oh...one more thing. TASVideos makes it clear that copying scripts is alright, as long as you make reference to...which I'm sorry that I didn't do that until this morning. They even discuss the idea of Frame Wars, which means that we are not expected to write our own script everytime we create a new TAS. It is just pointless to optimize a run that has already been maxed out. You'll find that the majority of my TAS over 95% is mine for a good reason. There isn't anything out there that can be copied to accomplish the goals for this category.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected. At least you have been kind about it.
Instead of claiming persecution, talking about what other communities think, how much work you put in, how that work was put in, how the TAS was made, so on and so forth, you should focus on the run and what its merits are. What does this add that the current runs do not have?
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
nymx wrote:
Oh...one more thing. TASVideos makes it clear that copying scripts is alright, as long as you make reference to...which I'm sorry that I didn't do that until this morning. They even discuss the idea of Frame Wars, which means that we are not expected to write our own script everytime we create a new TAS. It is just pointless to optimize a run that has already been maxed out. You'll find that the majority of my TAS over 95% is mine for a good reason. There isn't anything out there that can be copied to accomplish the goals for this category.
The rule is indeed relaxed for frame wars, but that is completely irrelevant to anything that's going on here. Super Metroid has in fact never even been in a frame war situation. I'm not sure why you're bringing the frame war rule up.
Also, the last few times there have been frame wars, the end result movie actually ended up authoring everybody who participated in the frame war as they used each other's input. At the very least it's a courteous thing to do in that case.
The only thing that is in question here is whether Cpadolf's 3 minutes and 18 seconds of input (and possibly more) is considered enough to have to coauthor him or to just credit him in the submission. I would go with the former. It's not a small improvement or trick you copied, it's literally half of a whole section of the game.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 933
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Tangent wrote:
nymx wrote:
It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected. At least you have been kind about it.
Instead of claiming persecution, talking about what other communities think, how much work you put in, how that work was put in, how the TAS was made, so on and so forth, you should focus on the run and what its merits are. What does this add that the current runs do not have?
TAS related talk? that is what this thread started out to be, but for some reason TASVideos seems to show a lot of hatred towards Super Metroid. Now I find myself defending this because people are making accusations that are not true. We simply wanted to produce a video that would fulfill the category for 100% Map Completion, as worked on by our community of speedrunners in the Super Metroid Deer Tier collective. We acknowledge that CPAdolf's content is in Ceres...yes, but it has been heavily modified thereafter.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
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SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
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BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected. At least you have been kind about it.
Instead of claiming persecution, talking about what other communities think, how much work you put in, how that work was put in, how the TAS was made, so on and so forth, you should focus on the run and what its merits are. What does this add that the current runs do not have?
TAS related talk? that is what this thread started out to be, but for some reason TASVideos seems to show a lot of hatred towards Super Metroid. Now I find myself defending this because people are making accusations that are not true. We simply wanted to produce a video that would fulfill the category for 100% Map Completion, as worked on by our community of speedrunners in the Super Metroid Deer Tier collective. We acknowledge that CPAdolf's content is in Ceres...yes, but it has been heavily modified thereafter.
I don't know how I can be any clearer. Everything you did in this post is wrong. Go back and read what I wrote again.
The amount of 1st post lurkers is suspicious... are we under attack?
We're fine! Remember the last time a game's community rushed to TASvideos to defend a controversial TAS? That went over really well! We even went a full page before the personal attacks came out!
...At least the Super Metroid community seems to be less likely to accuse someone of wanting to have sex with cartoon horses.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
nymx, a lot of the flame is coming from the lack of information in the submission text and it has been noted by a few others here. It is not about the game itself, it is how it was brought to the table with nearly no information. If you were to take the time and make a proper submission text, I am sure most of this would stop. This can be done by properly crediting everyone who was involved in making this tas, why and where the 90 seconds of improvement you believe are present, and an explanation on why the route takes the past that is does. Just mention anything That COULD be relevant.
It just seems that SM is hated so much that any new developments in our community will be rejected. At least you have been kind about it.
nymx wrote:
TAS related talk? that is what this thread started out to be, but for some reason TASVideos seems to show a lot of hatred towards Super Metroid.
Yes, Super Metroid is hated so much here. That's why there are 7 + 2 ROM hack published runs of the same game. That's why the thread for Super Metroid has existed since 2004, has 206 pages, and is still active.
Yup. Super Metroid is definitely hated here. When was deertier created? 2012?
Please stop saying TASVideos hates Super Metroid. I may be a new member here but I think it's an insult to TASvideos long history with this game.
All everyone is saying is that your category choice is not different enough from any of the other published runs here. It's pretty much pointless to publish it because it brings almost nothing new to the table. As stated previously, a game with an already large amount of published runs doesn't need another one if it's not interesting enough.
We simply wanted to produce a video that would fulfill the category for 100% Map Completion, as worked on by our community of speedrunners in the Super Metroid Deer Tier collective.
I just wanted to point out that you've literally already done this, regardless of TASVideos' decision. So congrats on that I guess.
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Heidman wrote:
nymx, a lot of the flame is coming from the lack of information in the submission text and it has been noted by a few others here. It is not about the game itself, it is how it was brought to the table with nearly no information. If you were to take the time and make a proper submission text, I am sure most of this would stop. This can be done by properly crediting everyone who was involved in making this tas, why and where the 90 seconds of improvement you believe are present, and an explanation on why the route takes the past that is does. Just mention anything That COULD be relevant.
I think its too late now.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
If Cpadolf did this, he apparently would beat my time...and you wouldn't complain about the category when it comes to him.
I'd just like to point out that this is definitely not true and very unfair! As an example you can take a look at these rejected runs by Cpadolf and Saturn for Super Metroid. Both were considered arbitrary categories.
Cpadolf
http://tasvideos.org/1686S.html
Saturn
http://tasvideos.org/3023S.html
<--- 2nd post lurker right here. Hi TAS guys, I'm from the Super Metroid (human) speedrunning community of the likes of deertier.com. I've been watching this debate unfold over the last 24 hours or so.
While I understand that new submissions are subject to scrutiny, particularly with a game that's been dissected as much as Super Metroid, I'm a little dismayed at the attitudes expressed on this forum. While I wasn't expecting high-fives and champagne, I certainly wasn't expecting this kind of negativity and smugness towards nymx.
On the issue of the script copying from Ceres to Brinstar from cpadolf - nymx has alluded to this multiple times during his live streams and is not trying to plagiarize the work of someone else. He has admitted that this was an oversight in the submission text and apologized multiple times now, and yet everyone is still hung up on it. Credit will be given where credit is due. Let's move on.
I don't see how the goal is arbitrary. Either the map is filled completely, or it's not. True, there is no in-game (post-game) quantifiable measurement for map completion other than watching the squares fill in on the mini map. This is a downfall to this particular category, but I'm pretty sure he didn't spend 6 1/2 months TAS-ing a route that left reason to doubt whether or not all map squares were filled in.
Is it entertaining to watch? Well, that's subjective. But to say that it mirrors a 100% run whilst ignoring item collection is ignorant. The route itself is different, therefore many new room strategies had to be implemented. So for those asking what it brings to the table, there should be enough new/original room strats to answer that. And for the record, the descriptive commentary of individual room strats is about 3 hours and 15 minutes long, not 5. If people would rather read than watch, then maybe nymx can provide a written play-by-play, but that's up to him.
Lastly, to admit there's 90 seconds of improvement to be made should act as motivation, not a detriment to submission, imo. It's not to say, "well, I know I could've done better, but I was too lazy to go back and make the changes." Admittedly, I don't know much about TAS-ing, but I do know that one does not simply go back in the script and tweak things (I'd attach a Boromir meme if I could). If you make changes to early script, you have to rewrite everything that follows, so it's no small feat. Maybe nymx's run doesn't fit your criteria of "high quality," but maybe it will entice other TAS-ers to improve on his, who knows. Regardless, I don't think his intent was to make it perfect the first time around. Rather, I think it was a means to open up a fresh category and create some buzz around it, and to try something that hasn't really been attempted before.
TASVideos is not the sole authority for publishing TASes. Hell, there's tons of Nicovideo TASes that gain plenty of popularity and that nobody ever thinks about submitting here because they don't care about us. And there's the Worms Armageddon folks, the Doom community has basically been producing TASes since before this site even existed, people have been making Smash Bros. TASes using ingame slowdown features on YouTube for years, etc.
TASVideos is a site promoting TASes for general audiences. This is why we get into such huge fights about what is and isn't worth publishing. We aren't a community dedicated to a specific game; odds are good we aren't going to be interested in the super-specific kinds of runs that such communities tend to produce as they mine their game(s) of choice for ever-more-outré ways to play it.
We rejected a "coinless capless cannonless" run of Super Mario 64 (a moderately well-established "conduct" in the SM64 community), and nobody can say that SM64 doesn't produce entertaining runs. It's still popular on YouTube. There's all kinds of gimmick runs like low-map% for Symphony of the Night which similarly did not get published here (though I don't recall if specifically low-map% was even submitted).
Even though the communities for those games love these kinds of stunts, the TASing world at large is generally less interested. That doesn't make your run valueless. It just means that it's a bit too targeted at your community's tastes. You still have the run; nothing's going to take it from you. Put it up on YouTube, enjoy it with your friends, share it around, et cetera. Don't rely on TASVideos to in some way "validate" your actions.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Overall, it seems to me like there is a misconception among RTA communities as to what TASes are "supposed" to provide, and what TASvideos looks for in their submissions. The goal of this TAS was to be a run that showcases the "100% Map Completion" category with execution far beyond the limits of human capabilities. This site does have a tier for runs like that, the Vault, but only if they are any% or 100% runs. The primary objective of runs published on this site is to provide entertainment, so if the majority of voters do not find a run entertaining due to its similarity to other categories, then it can be rejected on that basis whether or not it holds a record in said category. That said, just because a run is not published on TASvideos does not mean it is not a legitimate TAS which accomplished the goals it was intended to. I think having a board for TASes on deertier is a great idea.
Conversely, things like the concept of "speed/entertainment tradeoffs" are often laughed at by RTAers. Just because something is done in RTA does not mean it should be done in a TAS on this site, and just because something isn't done in RTA doesn't mean it shouldn't be done in a TAS on this site. A prime example is the Mega Man X3 100 "Best Ending" Press Disposer Route category on this site. As arbitrary a category as they come(certainly more so than "100% Map Completion"), but the perfect alternative to any%, because it showcases all of the game's content that the any% run does not. In the RTA community, this category is seen as a meme where you intentionally do things to beat the game slower for no reason.
As for the copying of inputs, and admittedly I know next to nothing about TASing Super Metroid so anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume that in a game as competitive as Super Metroid, the early parts which are identical across all categories would have been optimized to the point where they could be compared to "frame wars", and from what I understand these are the parts that Nymx copied from Cpadolf. In that regard I can understand Nymx's decision to do so, but I think that even copying things which have no impact on the speed of the run completely verbatim, like the playarounds while waiting for Ridley to appear and during a lot of the Crocomire fight, is going a bit too far. If you like some trick he does and want to show it in your run, then I would cite him on that specifically, but other than that I would come up with your own material.
