(Link to video)
This is a run of Math Blaster with the main goal being speed. Math Blaster has 3 sections: Trash, Caves, and Ship. In the menus you can choose between 3 and 5 lives. I add 1 life because I will be taking a lot of damage in trash.

Trash

In trash it is better to hit a wrong answer first as it only takes an additional 19 frames to fire the second shot, but hitting a correct answer first adds 40 frames because your bonus points increase and they have to be tallied in the bonus stages. For this reason, I hit an incorrect answer first all 30 times. This is the reason for the additional life. In the bonus stage, I avoid all bonus points except at the end, where shooting the last asteroids can end the stage sooner.

Caves

The main feature of caves is the up-clip glitch which was discovered recently. Normally, you are not able to progress upwards unless the number on your character is between the minimum and maximum listed on the cave level. However, with this frame perfect and pixel perfect glitch you can avoid getting detected by the laser that usually shoots you down.

Ship

In ship I manipulate the RNG to only give me problems where the correct answer is in the 2 leftmost tubes by waiting a specific amount of frames. The RNG is entirely based on the frame number and there is no other known way to manipulate it. The second tube is only slower by 1 frame, so both are acceptable as it would take at least 1 frame to RNG manipulate again until the correct answer was in the first tube. The only other glitch used here is known as the "Owch clip" where there is a 1 frame window to get "owched" by a piece of trash flying by and still make it into the tube.

ThunderAxe31: Judging.
ThunderAxe31: Hello and welcome to TASVideos!
This run is not acceptable for Alternative tier because the entertainment value is very low. Thus, Vault tier requirements will be applied.
The run is nicely optimized and beats all known records. However, the game played does not meet the Vault requirements, since it's an educational game. Specifically: this game mostly consists in doing math fast, and in fact most of the efforts showcased in this run are actually just manipulating and predicting the answers in order to solve the problems fast.
For this reason, I'm rejecting this submission. Better luck next time!
ThunderAxe31: In view of the arguments provided by feos in the forum thread of this submission, I start over the judging process.

ThunderAxe31: The argument brought by feos consisted in a different interpretation of the Vault rule for educational games. While I considered that rule to forbid any run made with educational games, he did instead consider it as actually forbidding games that don't feature TAS-worthy material. Since his argument was supposedly supported by the goal of TASVideos of developing superhuman gameplay, I decided to consider the possibility that my initial judgement was wrong.
I had a conversation with other staff members, including Nach, Mothrayas, and feos. I explained the reason for my judgement and I presented my evidence pointing out that Math Blaster can't be completed casually without solving math. In the end, everyone acknowledged that my method added a clear cut to the rule, whose text was updated accordingly. We needed to draw a clear borderline for evaluating if a given title is primarily an educational game or not. My idea was to use the concept of "casual play" as a yardstick for estimating how much determinant is the requirement to perform educational activities in order to play through the game.
On the other hand, we also agreed that relying on TAS merits for a given run could never give a definitive extimation, since that substantially consists of speculating about the TAS potential available for a given game. We can't really know in advance if such potential is actually present, and that would result in relying on chances, which we can't do for Vault rules. In fact, TAS potential can be there, but until one tries hard enough, we won't know about it. This doesn't allow for any reliable rule.
It must also be noted that while it's true that the goal of TASVideos is to develop and showcase superhuman gameplay, this is mainly done for the purpose of entertainment, which clearly doesn't apply for the Vault tier. And on the other hand, this movie has been proven by the audience to lack any TAS merits that make it entertaining to watch.
The purpose of the Vault tier is keep track of videogame records, and thus shouldn't be applied for pieces of software that can't be considered as actual games. For this reason, some kinds of titles are excluded from Vault tier, like educational games. Even if the updated rule that defines an educational game is quite lax, it's still very clear and definite, and it must be so in order to avoid impossible-to-solve cases; raising an exception here would generate a bad precedent.
This is indeed an unfortunate case because the run itself features good TASing material, as explained by feos in this post, and I also was aware of this from the start; but even then the run was not entertaining enough to be accepted for Alternative. The best I can do is to note that a "maximum score" run could potentially be entertaining enough to be accepted. Lastly, I want to thank qflame for having submitted this run, because it did give the opportunity to test and refine the rule.
Reassuming: the rule didn't change, my judgment didn't change. Rejecting again for bad game choice in conjunction with low entertainment.

FREE MATH BLASTER.
Memory: Changes in the movie rules resulted in revisiting the run. Obviously, the audience reception and the optimization has not changed. However, due to said changes, the main factor now is triviality. This run looks far from trivial, with lots of RNG manipulation and plenty of obvious optimization points. Therefore under the rules now, this movie is finally acceptable.
Freeing Math Blaster to Vault.
EZGames69 PUBLISH MATH BLASTER

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Post subject: Re: #5759: qflame's SNES Math Blaster Episode 1: In Search of Spot in 07:53.15
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TASVideoAgent wrote:
ThunderAxe31: In view of the arguments provided by feos in the forum thread of this submission, I start over the judging process.
Thank you. Even if this ends up being rejected a second time, I still greatly appreciate that people's opinions are heard and seriously taken into consideration.
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Hello. I’ve lurked the site for a long time (years actually), and I decided to create an account and share some feedback. I suggest that TASVideos shift its rules away from which types of games are allowed or not allowed. Instead, the rules should subject runs of games with certain central elements to increased standards of publication. This allows sidestepping pointless discussions about whether a certain game technically is or is not of a certain genre, whether a certain genre should or should not be allowed, and whether a past publication should be interpreted as a genre precedent while also addressing the valid concerns raised in this thread. Some games perhaps can never be TASed in such a way that this site should never accept, but it is unwise and almost certainly premature to blacklist a game—and certainly an entire category or genre—in this way. Under these principles, a rejection would mean only that the run is rejected, not the game itself, leaving the door open for innovation in the future. More concretely, instead of saying that “educational games” are not allowed except when they are, the rules should identify more precisely the elements which cause “educational games” to be unsuitable for TASing. Consensus about which elements typically make “educational games” unsuitable for TASing will be a lot easier to achieve than about whether “educational games” should or shouldn’t be banned. Identifying whether a game focuses enough on these elements to warrant higher standards of acceptance will be trickier and will still be a judgement call subject to disagreement, but this should still be much easier than deciding whether a game is or is not an “educational game”. I suspect that I’m only expressing what the community has understood intuitively but maybe has struggled to codify logically. If I were judging this run, I would decide that the game does focus on elements that typically make “educational games” poorly suited for TASing enough that a run of this game must meet a standard of publication higher than simply finishing the game quickly. (I submit that PRNG manipulation alone is insuffcient to exceed this threshold.) Since this run shows that deliberately answering incorrectly is actually faster than answering correctly as the player should, I would decide that this run does indeed meet such a higher standard, although barely. I hope this helps.
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To Twice-Baked Bowfish. Shortly after making my last post in this thread I spawned a staff discussion about why educational games are mostly not suitable, which TAS requirements they don't meet, how to objectively check whether they meet them or not, so about all that can be unclear here. The currently present rule about educational games (updated recently) reflects the agreement of all the staff members involved in this discussion, and when the judgment it made, it will explain how the updated rule resolves all the complaints.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Feos: Awesome! :-)
qflame
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Well I just read through all of the comments as I had no idea that my TAS sparked this debate and was reevaluated until now. I'd like to thank the tasvideos judges for refining the rule that got the run rejected. However, there are still a couple of things I'd like to say. First of all, Math Blaster is literally listed on tasvideos.org as a recommendation for a good game to TAS. Source: http://tasvideos.org/ListOfIdeas/SNES.html Archive in case this changes: https://web.archive.org/web/20180211214345/http://tasvideos.org/ListOfIdeas/SNES.html Math Blaster is simultaneously rejected for bad game choice and listed as a good game choice. On the issue of math being primary or secondary: for anyone who has passed grade school, single digit addition should be instantaneous. The amount that my education has been furthered by this game is 0. However, as an RTA speedrunner of this game, I have improved at the game mechanics. My first run through the game was about 15 minutes, and my current pb has gotten down to below 11 minutes. My math ability remained unchanged the whole time. The ability to do math does not affect TAS or RTA in this game on difficulty 1. And yes, I could easily complete a TAS using the mod that blanks out the numbers. In fact, this TAS would work. As has already been pointed out, the numbers on the screen do not matter as I manipulate them to be whatever I want. In conclusion, this is a game with mechanics, plot, backstory (that is not exclusive to this game), glitches, an active speedrunning community (no I'm not joking, join our discord), listed on tasvideos as a good choice to TAS, where education/math is not the primary aspect for me or anyone else whose age contains 2 digits. If tasvideos does not accept my TAS, that's fine. The decision on this TAS or any other decision does not change the fact that I'm already working on the next one. Currently I'm disassembling the game to figure out how it works and allow for better trash clear patterns and a better cave seed for faster clipping.
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qflame wrote:
However, there are still a couple of things I'd like to say. First of all, Math Blaster is literally listed on tasvideos.org as a recommendation for a good game to TAS. Source: http://tasvideos.org/ListOfIdeas/SNES.html Archive in case this changes: https://web.archive.org/web/20180211214345/http://tasvideos.org/ListOfIdeas/SNES.html Math Blaster is simultaneously rejected for bad game choice and listed as a good game choice.
The page you link to literally has every SNES game on it. Once upon a time people made lists of good games without TASs, but others felt it was lacking and just added everything. The top of the page says:
This page provides a useful and definitive answer to a simple question: Which SNES games have no published TAS movies yet?
Some obviously bad game choices are pointed out on that page, but what's not on the bad game choice list should not automatically be viewed as good game choice. As described, it's a list of what doesn't have TASs published, nothing more.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
qflame
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One more thing I forgot, on the suggestion to do a max score run, unfortunately that's not possible as you can grind for infinite points in the caves. Nothing is forcing you to go up and as far as I'm aware the extra points jewels things will keep spawning.
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qflame, this game is just tricky in its nature. First, it's on that page not because it's a nice TAS idea, but because the guy who created the page felt like listing ALL SNES games. This is a bit ridiculous an idea in the first place, and has nothing to do with what such pages used to exist for. Second, it's an edge case regarding rules. As the judgment says, it's unfortunate that this run only got Vault feedback. Several judges agree that it has nice tasable content. But its entertainment value is not appealing to the broader audience. And this is what makes judging it tricky. We can't send it to Moons, because it's not that entertaining. And we can't send it to Vault, because Vault is based on clear cut rules. Without such rules, any crappy game would be possible to publish, and we kinda keep the level of TASing at superplay in general. Again, this game is not crappy. It's just not that appealing. I'd like to have this run in Moons, but the audience disagrees, and that's what makes this situation unfortunate. We can't judge eligibility for vault by TASability of the game, because, like the judgment says, it's just a potential. It can be actualized or remain unknown for decades. It also can't be measured. TASability is subjective. And for subjective elements of judgment we rely on how entertaining people find the run. EDIT: Welp, I was too late with the first point.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
qflame
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I can attempt to add entertainment value during bonus stages in future TAS but I am basically limited to dancing around the screen and spamming buttons like I did during trash 3 bonus.
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I don't think it'd help honestly. The majority just doesn't enjoy this game. Which is super strange, because all this discussion is only that long because people want it to be published regardless of failing to enjoy it. If they dedicated their effort to giving better feedback, it'd be published already :/
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
We can't send it to Moons, because it's not that entertaining. And we can't send it to Vault, because Vault is based on clear cut rules. Without such rules, any crappy game would be possible to publish, and we kinda keep the level of TASing at superplay in general. Again, this game is not crappy. It's just not that appealing.
That seems completely contradictory. It can't go to Moons because it's not entertaining enough, it can't go to Vault because it's not entertaining enough. So what's the difference? I thought the original idea of Vault was precisely that entertainment, being "crappy", being "unappealing", is completely inconsequential. Every game deserves a TAS, and Vault is for those that aren't entertaining enough. I still fail to see the harm in accepting this. I might have understood it if the number of currently published TASes were in the tens. It's not. It's in the thousands. One more isn't going to make that much of a difference. And I'm certain that if I dug enough I could find several TASes of several games that are much worse than this one.
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Where did I say that it can't go to Vault because it's not entertaining enough?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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How do you interpret the word "appealing" other than entertaining, enjoyable, attracting interest, attractive? Those are all concepts of entertainment. Which should be completely inconsequential in Vault.
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I never said not being appealing is the reason against vaulting this run. Try reading the full post this time.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Alyosha
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Memory wrote:
FREE MATH BLASTER.
FREE MATH BLASTER!
Samsara
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Alyosha wrote:
Memory wrote:
FREE MATH BLASTER.
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | Cohost
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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Samsara wrote:
Alyosha wrote:
Memory wrote:
FREE MATH BLASTER.
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
EZGames69
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Alyosha wrote:
Memory wrote:
FREE MATH BLASTER.
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Alyosha wrote:
Memory wrote:
FREE MATH BLASTER.
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
FREE MATH BLASTER!
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! I still think that the DOS version makes a better game choice.
Current Projects: TAS: Wizards & Warriors III.
MESHUGGAH
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Woohoo! Looks like my last non joke comment seems to be up to date with questions unanswered (according to Mothrayas it is answered, but I don't see it in this thread) but it's more about the rules for these type of games. Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games? edit: Nach's old page of rejected games from the previous movie rules page: Wiki: Nach/HistoryOfGamesAndRelevanceHere
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Samsara
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games?
No recent discussion thread, just staff mutually deciding that the way things used to be done was restrictive and wrong. We've been making quite a few of those decisions lately.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
MESHUGGAH
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Samsara wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games?
No
Can I request a debate thread being made by a judge so I can read the staff's thoughts about the rule changes and reword and submit my post there? I'm looking particularly for Wheel of Fortune and another rejected educational TAS which name I currently can't recall. It was rejected by ThunderAxe31 if I'm correct. I'm trying to load the page http://tasvideos.org/RejectedSubmissions.html but it seems to load eternally.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
Memory
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Samsara wrote:
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Is there a discussion thread of the movie rule change about educational games?
No
Can I request a debate thread being made by a judge so I can read the staff's thoughts about the rule changes and reword and submit my post there? I'm looking particularly for Wheel of Fortune and another rejected educational TAS which name I currently can't recall. It was rejected by ThunderAxe31 if I'm correct. I'm trying to load the page http://tasvideos.org/RejectedSubmissions.html but it seems to load eternally.
Wheel of Fortune isn't covered by the recent rule changes (game shows are separately banned). If you can remember the other educational game however, you can post in like ask a judge or something.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Samsara
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Can I request a debate thread being made by a judge so I can read the staff's thoughts about the rule changes and reword and submit my post there?
To be honest, the extent of our thought process regarding rule changes like these is simply "hey, we're not actually doing this anymore, let's remove it from the rules and inform people", and everyone agrees and we do it. There's really nothing to debate. There would be a lot of merit in, say, a thread where people can suggest submissions to be re-examined, especially with some of the upcoming planned changes, but I don't really see the point of having a debate thread for what I assume most people would consider common sense updates to the rules.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
MESHUGGAH
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I finally tracked down the TAS I wanted to debate through reading through my user post history but it was accepted after a judge change. #5772: Ready Steady Yeti's GBA Noddy: A Day in Toyland in 17:52.19 [3609] GBA Noddy: A Day in Toyland by Ready Steady Yeti in 17:52.19 I currently don't have a "list of educational TASes rejected" and I don't seem to be able to search for this particular reason used for rejection. Regarding game shows, my personal opinion is that they shouldn't be blanket banned. I don't see this as part of the discussion on the above linked thread by Samsara. I guess I'm in the minority who thinks game show TASes and some other banned genres should be allowed to get a chance case by case. If that's the case, it's not important to create a thread, I just want to understand why they get no chance to be allowed.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
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