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This run improves the previously published TAS by 56483 frames thanks to the newly discovered two glitches, feedback from EarthBound TAS pioneer, pirohiko has also been applied. It's also important to note that the Japanese version was inevitably used for several reasons.

A new glitch

Both of the glitches described below were discovered by pirohiko.

Overwriting sprites

The game can hold up to 22 sprites on a single screen from slot #00 to slot #21. But if it exceeds 22, the sprite in slot #00 will overwrite the 22nd sprite. This glitch was performed in the following sequence of steps:
  • Manipulate the sprite so that the rightmost barricade is accessed to slot #00.
  • Create 10 enemies and fill all the slots.
  • Then the sprite present in slot #00 is overwritten by the 22nd generated sprite.
Before barricade was overwritten, there were a number of sprites like this:
It was used to get rid of the barricade of the Onett that block the way to Twoson. Moreover, pirohiko devised a way to overwrite the Urban Zombies that block the stairs from Threed to Saturn Valley. Ultimately, the reason we're bringing Jeff into the party is to use the cold-induced stairs glitch. If he doesn't rescue Ness & Paula and doesn't build stairs, there's nowhere else to find that. That's why he invented the new route, however, he reacted vaguely to whether it is feasible. I'm not sure yet how we're going to get through countless enemies and head to the stairs. So I didn't think much about this route, I pursued Jeff joining the party.

Another wall clip with a Skip sandwiches

Taking a Skip sandwich speeds up the character by 1.5 times. At this time, if you keep pressing the ← and ↑ buttons in turn against the slanted wall, the x and y subpixel are gradually reduced by the multiplication arithmetic error, resulting in the player moving slowly through the wall and slightly to the top left. It was usefully used in Jeff's part at Winters.

Version choice

I absolutely wanted to keep working on the English version, but unfortunately, it seems that overwriting sprites glitch had been modified on the English version. The mentioned glitch is accomplished by forcing the sprite present in slot #00 to an arbitrary slot by exceeding the maximum number of sprites that can be displayed on a single screen. However, in this English version, the sprite present in slot #00 flickering repeatedly to prevent the sprite from being pushed to arbitrary slot. On the one hand, the Japanese version is much faster in text than the English version. When Ness leveling up with the enormous amount of experience he gets after defeating Ness' Nightmare, you can see a marked difference in the speed of text.

Possible improvements

There's one thing left that inaccurate. Under the assumption that overwriting sprites glitch is available in Threed, I thought there would be no way that Ness could defeat Ness' Nightmare on his own. Yet after a little investigation that it turned out that using a couple of Bag of Dragonites would kill off all of Ness' Nightmare's HP. Using Bag of Dragonite, it'll inflict 800 +/- 25% damage on an enemy (same effect as PSI Fire); Ness' Nightmare is only affected by 75% of PSI Fire damage. So the effect of Bag of Dragonite is actually 600 +/- 25%, we need at least three Bag of Dragonites to defeat Ness' Nightmare which has 1654 HP. One of them can be found in the Magicant, the other in Fire Spring, and the last in Scaraba Pyramid. Perhaps, given the amount of time we spend looking for Bag of Dragonites, there may not be as many improvements as expected.

Suggested screenshot

Frame 27067

Memory: Claiming for judging.
Memory: While at first glance the optimization looks ok, it in fact lost time to a previously known WIP of the game. While the timesaves aren't anything super big, it is really questionable submitting when there is another WIP of the game in progress that is faster by gameplay and I cannot find that acceptable. According to the Movie Rules, a submission must beat all known records. This sometimes includes unfinished WIPs.
This run uses the Japanese version for supposed exclusive timesaves but in fact are not exclusive. The two versions of the game shall remain free to obsolete each other.
Rejecting.


TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6152: chatterbox's SNES EarthBound in 54:07.83
Spikestuff
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I'm going to call for two users 0xwas and pirohiko. Since this was done relatively quickly in the amount of time to produce it while I know they're gearing to improve on yours and have been grinding it heavily to find anything possible. I'm not impressed on how quickly this was produced and submitted when there's the possibility to find more for this specific branch TAS.
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Hey, I enjoyed it.
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Yep. Same here. Looks great, should be published.
Spikestuff
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I'm just going to point out two things that 0xwas wrote for the first seven minutes (he's allegedly looking through more):
- his rng manip and onett skip were still suboptimal (our wip has done better) - changing game version due to different onett skip isn't good excuse imo (only differences are texts and faster menu opening/closing technically), plus, skip is still possible in english too
I'm also going to play the Discord card. chatterbox is in the same channel as 0xwas who has been providing input back and forth with pirohiko, input which is faster before this was conceived in which he didn't reference and instead just decided to make on a whim from the looks of what we have here.
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Memory
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If said wip could be provided it would be appreciated.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Spikestuff
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Received permission from both 0xwas and pirohiko to upload their latest version as of 18th Oct. And you can download it here.
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I watched whole run and I enjoyed. good job. Though, my first impression of your run was you were kinda following RTA route but I don't know if you intended or not. So some things can be cut in TAS. I'm listing where you lost time below. RNG manipulation You're using opening HP/SP window more often than our wip. Changing walking path and where you do window manip can reduce it. We don't get to test battles but I feel those can be better too. Onett Skip You seemed you were following pirohiko's RTA setup. With proper walking, you can still get correct #00 sprite with more shorter path. Additionally, you spawned enemies above trees instead below. So you lost around 1 second due to lags. Actually, our wip has done the skip on english and shorter path. Money Grinding You used twoson hotel. Using ATM is good but getting $50 from NPC was clearly huge time loss. (it cost 23 seconds) You could take following 2 possible route: 1. Get Hamburger after onett and sell it and Bat, buy less 1 skip sandwich. You'll need one small HP heal item in this route. 2. Get Baseball Cap and sell. You can skip hotel entirely in this route. But I don't know which route would be faster because our wip will use neither iirc. cliff zips in winters I have no experience with it but pirohiko said 1st cliff zip could be done around 4s (where you took 13s to get) and 2nd one could be faster too. I'm not going to mention about possible new route. pirohiko would know more. Edit: please ignore everything after onet skipt in our wip spike posted :p We plan to redo some day.
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I would like to point out that the Japanese version saves quite a bit of time over English - as the author pointed out - due to faster text and generally less lags. Playing through just Onett alone normally can have about 2-3 minutes of difference between the two versions, from what I remember. That being said, I don't know how much time the new skips save; a time of 54 minutes seems plausible with all things considered. was0x & pirohiko: Are you on English? (They are on English) Do you have a target time?
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We plan to redo some day.
Well then. I suppose that settles that... Great movie. Good luck chatterbox!
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electricslide wrote:
Well then. I suppose that settles that... Great movie. Good luck chatterbox!
It doesn't settle anything when a movie exists that obsoletes this one at an opening segment before it was even submitted. It doesn't matter that a segment is being redone when there is evidence that this is sloppy. Recall to my first post on this thread and the notable issues was0x brought forth that the author didn't. This movie was rushed and we shouldn't be giving a hand to attempt to save it due to this.
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Rushed or no, isn't this run the best completed run? Accepting this run is not really a problem, it'll simply stay until a better TAS shows up ^^ I mean, it is entertaining... Even if I prefer english :3 EDIT:
Memory wrote:
If a full movie fails to beat an existing WIP, it can still be rejected for such.
Ok then, my bad, sorry ^^
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Memory
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If a full movie fails to beat an existing WIP, it can still be rejected for such.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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MUGG wrote:
Do you have a target time?
Not in particular but sub 1 on english would be great if possible. I feel onett skip and new winter cliff skip combined save around 9 minutes.
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I not completely understand why English language versions is preferable on TASVideos. TASing is international hobby and in particular we have a lot of Japanese speaking people. Speaking about MOTHER2 ギーグの逆襲 - original version of this game (Japanese) was released first in 1994. English translated version named EarthBound was released only a year later in 1995. As MUGG said faster dialogues in Japanese and less lags can make TAS several minutes shorter. So i see not logical reasons to choose english here.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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We strictly ignore text differences between any language for runs on this site. At this point all languages are acceptable but an improvement cannot come solely from faster text.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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English is "better" because it's an internationnal language. French people know english, german people know english, japanese people know english, etc. It's the second langage of all around the most people in the world who is bilingual. I'm french, and I can understand english, but I can't understand Japanese. Japanese is not as common as a second langage for many people. Well that's just my view on it. That's why I didn't do my own TAS in French. Could have, but wanted bigger audience.
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It doesn't settle anything when a movie exists that obsoletes this one at an opening segment before it was even submitted.
Once the WIP is completed then they can obsolete this publication. Or someone else can come along and incorporate both together. I don't see why we should wait until the WIP is finished when they've had plenty of time to work on their movie and have obviously had other priorities. .
Evidence that this is sloppy.
Currently this is the best run available.
This movie was rushed and we shouldn't be giving a hand to attempt to save it due to this.
What is there to save? This movie beats out the current run. It should be published and then the folks working on the current WIP can then obsolete it. Someone obviously has his panties in a bunch because they got beat out by someone working harder. Tough deal, but that happens. They've had plenty of time to finish the WIP.
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electricslide do me a favour. Stop it. Do you know one of the rules on TASVideos? Don't be lazy. We will try and beat your movie. We should hopefully not succeed. That WIP that was0x and pirohiko has created applies to this for performing better compared to this TAS.
electricslide wrote:
Once the WIP is completed then they can obsolete this publication. Or someone else can come along and incorporate both together. I don't see why we should wait until the WIP is finished when they've had plenty of time to work on their movie and have obviously had other priorities.
Vice versa. I don't see why we should have a TAS that was rushed which is evident by a WIP that was made which can show the case of "it's already obsolete before it was even submitted". You want a movie that was ACCEPTED and was under PUBLISHING and see that it got REJECTED this year from a WIP (before the WIP was completed)? Here you go. (Fun Fact on this one, it was actually real close to Publication, I would know. I was the Publisher.) As a better note. We also have a movie currently in the submission pile (besides this one) which will be rejected for the same reason. This is the movie for the same reason.
electricslide wrote:
Currently this is the best run available.
No it isn't. This one is for what exists. As for you last "point", get over yourself and quit attempting to save something that's plagued with issues.
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Memory
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Spikestuff wrote:
As a better note. We also have a movie currently in the submission pile (besides this one) which will be rejected for the same reason. This is the movie for the same reason.
I wouldn't make such assumptions until I finish.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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So I guess no one is going to mention that Ness is completely naked in the dream section?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Vice versa. I don't see why we should have a TAS that was rushed
Who says it was rushed? That is wholly *your* opinion.
which is evident by a WIP that was made which can show the case of "it's already obsolete before it was even submitted".
Currently this is the best completed run of the game. Ergo, it ought to be published.
That WIP that was0x and pirohiko has created applies to this for performing better compared to this TAS.
Interesting timeline. I'd agree if was0x and pirohiko had done their WIP in response to this one. Which is obviously not the case given the anger at your response that they were beaten for priority here. What you're doing is actually very common in academia and elsewhere. You have the 'big names' working on something and they get pipped. You're attempting to delay publication so that the 'big names' can come in later and get full credit. Poor showing I must say. Sorry. They've had time to do their WIP, but they have other priorities. That's why they got beat out by this 'lazy' (in your eyes) run which completes the game. We've had plenty of frame wars before. Labelling a finished run as 'lazy' because it doesn't incorporate all the skips of a yet unfinished WIP, well, I can't say. You say you can beat this run. Fair enough. Let's see your finished version of this run which is faster and then settle this debate. Otherwise we should publish this. There was obviously a lot of work put into this publication and labelling it as *rushed* and *lazy* is quite unfair. I for one am quite happy that this run was submitted. It's well done. Piro and was0x can of course finish their superior run when they are finished. Until then this should stand.
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electricslide: it is strongly discouraged for submissions to outright ignore known time saves prior to submission. Just because it is the fastest completed run does not mean we have to accept it by our rules.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Spikestuff
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Oh no big names, ooooooh scary. I'm sorry that you don't understand that I'm quoting Site Rules and believe that I'm using the word "lazy" whilst quoting it (with a direct link mind ya), when I'm really more or less "not impressed" as I've stated at the beginning. "My eyes" are apparently not that of the Rules that the Site provides in the first place, which apparently you have some questionable "arguments" about it. As for the rushed comment, I'm allowed to criticize this TAS for being rushed when A, there's evidence that suggests that is and B, this is an RPG game where there's a lot of randomness. As a Note: I've stalled the previous movie for a month (after going through with it by a Senior Publisher) for a just in-case an improvement comes along due to issues. And now we're here 2 months later (from submission) with the same and new issues as the previous.
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electricslide wrote:
I for one am quite happy that this run was submitted. It's well done. Piro and was0x can of course finish their superior run when they are finished. Until then this should stand.
It clearly wasn't well done if Piro and was0x have already obsoleted it with their WIP. Why bother accepting an already obsoleted run when we can just....not do that. I'm voting No.
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