Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
jlun2 wrote:
What's more "legit"? Sorting from slowest to fastest.
1. Trigger the ending sequence, which while longer due to dialogue, sets up the end game flags
2. Setting up boss complete flag, probably some post game credit flag, then load credits.
3. Trigger the credits, ignoring game completion flags.
Depends on how the game works after you've completed it. If there's nothing at all after completion and normal credits, it's ok to trigger them directly. But to play safe and make it obvious for the viewers, you can use the fullest option.
jlun2 wrote:
It can't become a new category if it's the same category in every sense. There's a hacky workaround that involves reverse-obsoletion of newer run by older. Is there a forum post explaining why it's invalid?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Hey Judges, I am making a TAS for my youtube channel and thought it has potential to be accepted in the site, it is still a WIP but should be finished by 2 months from now:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKHvCiI3mLyFvtt86xk4IvCjF90Asl7lo
It is a 2 "Games" 1 Controller TAS. They both run Mega Man X6 but using different characters and the intention was for me to get used to make a single TAS for multiple games as I will tackle in the future.
The thing about this game is that you can only play as X until you unlock Zero, so the second "game" was tweaked so you can start as Zero with an input code at the Title screen.
The tweaker software used can be found in the following link, the rest of the game is exactly the same and I will be providing all the necessary files and steps to be able to playback the input file:
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=26507.0
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If it's a simple patch, sounds like a decent idea. Just need to make sure it doesn't enable any "secret" advantages.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
It can't become a new category if it's the same category in every sense. There's a hacky workaround that involves reverse-obsoletion of newer run by older. Is there a forum post explaining why it's invalid?
It's essentially the same reason this movie is invalid: http://tasvideos.org/2749M.html Shitty emulation of stop opcode = lel
I have nowhere else to post this. If it's not okay, please tell me.
I'm planning to start a non-tool-assisted speedrun of the GBC Zelda games. Not a TAS. I don't know how to categorize these two glitches, seen in many runs but the published TAS here specifically:
"Text Warping": https://youtu.be/XIto-s8dXRY?t=1074
"Pit Walking": https://youtu.be/XIto-s8dXRY?t=1161
The latter is only possible with custom (and hence not allowed for WRs likely) controllers in real-time, and the former is done in almost every speedrun.
But what do these classify as? The first one is obviously a warp glitch, but does that qualify as going out of bounds? Or would "out of bounds" be more reserved for... say, entering a glitchy void?
Are either of these memory corruption?
Basically, I'm asking what you judges would qualify the following:
- a run using the first glitch, but not second
- a run using the second glitch, but not first
- if it changes the categories listed, a run using both
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
How we categorize runs/glitches is going to be entirely different from how an individual RTA community categorizes them. The Oracle community is going to have their own way of seeing things for the Oracle games specifically, while we're categorizing on a highly generalized scale in order to fit as many games as possible under a single ruleset.
Pit walking is a complete non-issue here: It's just pressing opposite directions every frame to stay on the border between two pits. There's no memory corruption at all, and I'd even argue that there isn't even a glitch, just a TAS-only exploit of how the game treats pits. It's certainly not intentional and I wouldn't want to see it in a "glitchless" run, but given that it can't be used RTA without a modified controller or a macro, it shouldn't be worried about at all. Thus, for your purpose, you should only really be worried about the text warping, which... Yeah, if you didn't do that in your RTA, you're probably just doing what we'd probably consider to be a "glitchless" route, but you'd have to check how RTA handles it to be sure of exactly what it is and what you'd have to do for it to qualify for however they categorize their runs. For TAS purposes, a run that only uses one of the tricks, no matter which one it is, would just be an arbitrary and suboptimal run. If you're already using one sequence-breaking trick, there's no reason to not be using the other whenever it saves time.
As for whether or not text warping is memory corruption/out-of-bounds, it'd be way better to ask the RTA community about that as they'd know the ins-and-outs of how the glitch actually works and what's actually happening with it. That would in turn help us categorize it more accurately under our specific ruleset.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
I'm working on a NES Lode Runner test, and I would like to request a ruling on the use of a level select code.
If you see the speedrun progress on of this game, there was a world record that did no utilize any use the level select: No level select
But bested by one that utilizes this: Improved WR
For clarity, at any time you can press select to enter the level select and press A/B to scroll through the levels. It was deemed okay to use to skip the level end screen which is a good deal of time (about 12 seconds per level x 50 levels) since it does not affect any actual gameplay.
I agree with this, and it cuts several minutes of repetitive non-action. I know we don't operate under speedrun rules, but I was wondering if this technique would be allowed here.
To be clear, as soon as the level is completed (black screen), one would press select to enter the level select and then start to immediately exit, resulting in a faster transition to the next level.
What do you folks think?
Meh. I got used to YouTube's hotkeys, so skipping that afterlevel music and level observations is not a problem.
Off the record, would be cool to see "max speed" TAS as well.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
It seems like this could be compared to TASes that reset after certain levels to skip long cutscenes, like with Wario Land 4. The only difference here is you reload a save to go to the next level, but for Lode runner you can't.
I also can see this rule being applied for games like Lode Runner, I think the question should be how you would define when a level is "finished". do you reset on the first frame of the results screen or somewhere before it?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Skipping cutscenes in itself is a good thing, but with this game there seems to be a conflict between maximum speedrun potential (utilizing every legitimate technique to save as much time as possible) and absence of hard limit on when you switch to the next level.
If we use level select, we invent our own rule on when exactly we consider the level complete, and it's subject to quite some speculation I think. Why wait for the black screen? Why climb the ladder? Why wait for it? Just switch to the next level ASAP, but there's no point when it's objectively optimal. I would say introducing such a technique into a Vault movie adds arbitrariness, and we want to limit it in Vault. Unless there's some sort of in-game time?
EZGames69 wrote:
It seems like this could be compared to TASes that reset after certain levels to skip long cutscenes, like with Wario Land 4. The only difference here is you reload a save to go to the next level, but for Lode runner you can't.
I also can see this rule being applied for games like Lode Runner, I think the question should be how you would define when a level is "finished". do you reset on the first frame of the results screen or somewhere before it?
In games like those there's an internal flag that marks the level as complete so you don't have to beat it again, so as soon as the flag gets set, it's objectively fine and optimal to reset.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
What I would want to do, is define it based on the black screen after climbing the level, and make it consistent between each level.
It would be subjective where to define it, but this is by far the most reasonable definition.
In games like those there's an internal flag that marks the level as complete so you don't have to beat it again, so as soon as the flag gets set, it's objectively fine and optimal to reset.
Yes that’s what I meant. There’s a clear definition of ending for each level within the game itself so it’s easy to define.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Yeah that makes it fair play then. Also the manual mentions that you can increase game speed, which may make the movie a bit more entertaining?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I just want to throw in that this exact scenario came up while working on the final Bugz submission after DTC 9. I found that I could use the level select feature on the frame after the score gets saved in order to skip the level transition. After a brief discussion, it was decided by a majority (including 2 judges) that this was something we shouldn't do.
The discussion was very similar to Feos' reasoning in that if the Level Select is allowed to be used, then why limit it's use?
I wouldn't be against such use of level select in principle since you aren't skipping any gameplay to your advantage in this case, but it could set a potentially problematic precedent for the use of similar in-game features elsewhere in the future, including cases where it's not so clear-cut. If this is allowed, the reasoning from both the player for choosing the particular way to utilize the feature and the judge for allowing it needs to be bulletproof so that the limits are well-understood and don't set anything on a slippery slope.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
moozooh wrote:
but it could set a potentially problematic precedent for the use of similar in-game features elsewhere in the future, including cases where it's not so clear-cut. If this is allowed, the reasoning from both the player for choosing the particular way to utilize the feature and the judge for allowing it needs to be bulletproof so that the limits are well-understood and don't set anything on a slippery slope.
I think the reasoning you above is quite clear:
moozooh wrote:
I wouldn't be against such use of level select in principle since you aren't skipping any gameplay to your advantage
We've defined gameplay pretty well over the years. So I think the rule would be that as long as it does not clearly skip gameplay to your advantage. And with most vault rules, ambiguity errs on the side of disallowed.
as long as it does not clearly skip gameplay to your advantage
How much proof would an author need to provide for this? I'm thinking about games that advance RNG or advance a global timer during the level transition. The level skip code would not be allowed in such cases?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
WarHippy wrote:
I found that I could use the level select feature on the frame after the score gets saved in order to skip the level transition. After a brief discussion, it was decided by a majority (including 2 judges) that this was something we shouldn't do.
I remember discussing it here, but I don't remember anyone suggesting to skip levels after gameplay has ended.
So far the consensus is that for level select mentioned in the manual, it's should be perfectly fine to sooner leave the levels you've already completed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
http://tasvideos.org/4145S.html
What was the decision to call this an "all items" runthrough? Would "100%" not ordinarily include, say, maps and compasses?
I'm mainly asking because the definition of "100%" seems divisive for about every Zelda game. I've seen as many people not include maps and compasses as those who do.
Or was "all items" (which means upgrades, too) a marker for clarity to declare that, yes, everything is obtained?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
It's the definition the community agreed on in the previous submission thread. IIRC people just wanted it to include a few more things.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
It seems for most games they would be the same category but that run opts for obtaining all keys and maps/etc. as well, which a 100% might avoid.
Additionally even 100% has quirks. The Zelda Fandom Wiki lists oddities like the "Stone Slabs/Beaks" as required in Link's Awakening/DX, but not Maps or Compasses.
Thanks for the insight. This was an interesting rabbit hole.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 929
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Link to video
I've gone around with a few people and it seems that my questions have been answered, but there is still one concern. If you can tell me your opinion on the ending of this TAS, that would answer the question on whether it satisfies the rule of completing this apparently, never ending game.
The end, as described by the author, was supposed to be "something to look out for". Since I've never seen it before, I decided to TAS it and check to see if he was just joking or not...well, it slows down to a crawl and makes me believe that Levels 0 through 14 are enough to complete the game.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
What happens if yo just keep playing though? Or poke the level number and go through farther levels to see how they operate?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 929
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
feos wrote:
What happens if yo just keep playing though?
Aside from the slowness of the enemies, the "Shooting" ship moves at the same rate, but the laser moves as slow as the enemy ships.
feos wrote:
Or poke the level number and go through farther levels to see how they operate?
I've spent some time this afternoon trying to figure out the location for this, but there is a method that I can't figure out. It starts with Level 0, but nothing matches on changes of "one" that makes sense. I've used the debugger, but it performs the level change near the end of the process...which 1000's of executions are occurring (if stepped through with "Step Into"). So i'm trying to narrow it down. I'll keep trying.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence.
----
SOYZA: Are you playing a game?
NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing.
SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real?
----
Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes?
Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :)
----
BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
