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I went with "best ending" for now. Maybe if someone who has spare time feels like looking deeper into this movie to check what it actually accomplishes, but not me.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We currently have a Tobal 2 submission with the label "Tournament", which is the name of the main game mode, in order to distinguish from "Quest" mode. Should the main mode also have a label? If yes, which are the situations where a game mode doesn't require to be labelled? Note that in Tobal 2 both modes are available from clean SRAM.
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Tournament is basically the game's any%. Since you were even considering it to begin with by completely misreading what I stated. Tekken 3's branchless for this exact reason to keep itself separated from the only other branch "Tekken Force" (besides playaround). It's annoying enough that we're reinventing the wheel every 5 seconds with branches that shouldn't exist, especially for fighting games that don't need it. Tekken 3 also comes in line with Tekken and Tekken 2 since neither of those feature a secondary mode unlike Tekken 3's Tekken Force. Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and Guilty Gear for the quick examples besides Tekken where we don't have branches on the any% version of the game. This doesn't need a discussion about it. Use common sense and leave it branchless for it and only branch those that have the specific mode covered that isn't default/main game. --- Edit: Because you used Golden Axe as a defense let's go with that quickly. Golden Axe has 2 modes. An Arcade mode and a Duel mode. Ok, ready to see how you're meant to branch it? Arcade: Branchless Duel: Branch Not to mind you we also have 4 Golden Axe TASes that are branchless.
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Spikestuff you're the only one here saying "It must be X!!!" and overreacting to your own notion. This thread is for free discussion where we try to come up with sensible reasons and make solid decisions. This will happen once again, because at the moment it's unclear when we should have several equal modes labeled, and when some modes are secondary, with primary modes needing no label. FWIW, it does feel odd to label literally every mode blindly. This just needs a bit of brainstorming.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Spikestuff wrote:
It's annoying enough that we're reinventing the wheel every 5 seconds with branches that shouldn't exist, especially for fighting games that don't need it.
I know that I am annoying and I apologize for that, but I'm not reinventing anything in this case, as we already have a case of a movie that features a mode label for its first game mode: [3755] GB Kwirk "Going Up?" by Nitrodon, ZenicReverie & Alyosha in 15:40.49
Spikestuff wrote:
Use common sense and leave it branchless for it and only branch those that have the specific mode covered that isn't default/main game.
The problem is that I don't think that it's possible to objectively declare if a game mode is default/main for all cases. Using common sense seems a too vague method to me. Let me explain. My opinion is that all modes of a game should require a relative label, if the game features more than one mode available from clean SRAM, because I think that there is no definitive way to conclude if a game mode is more important than another. I'll give some examples: Tobal 2 and Tekken 3 feature a 1vs1 fighting mode at the top of the main menu modes available (respectively "Tournament" and "Arcade Mode"). While this is the standard for fighting games, it should be noted that there are exceptions like Golden Axe, where the first mode available on top of the main menu, "Arcade" mode, features levels to go through, while another mode, "The Duel", consists in a series of fights. I see that Golden Axe is a Beat 'em up game, which is technically different from fighting genre, but the problem is that the method of defining the main mode of a game would rely on the definition of both the game genre and the what the modes available consist in, which can both by fuzzy in some cases. At this point we could just decide to leave branchless for modes that appear at the top of the main menu of a game, but what if the game features multiple modes that are similar to each other? For example, we have Kwirk movie that clears the "Going Up?" mode, which is the first mode listed in the main menu. The second mode available is named "Heading Out?", which is features a different set of puzzles to solve; beside that, the only difference between the modes is that the puzzles in "Going Up?" requires the player to reach the stairs located on the other side of each room, while the "Heading Out?" mode requires the player to reach the exit, which is also located at the other side of each room. So if we look at what the two modes consist of, it's really impossible to decide which one is more the primary mode and which one is secondary. So my question is: how do we decide if a mode doesn't require a label? To me it seems that the only objective method would be to see which mode appears at the top of the main menu, but that would mean that games that feature multiple similar modes would get one of them unlabelled, which could bring confusion.
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Position in the menu is one way to look at it, and I can't say I like it. There's also this "common" notion what the game is primarily. Another approach is indeed comparing the differences in gameplay those modes provide. For example, if gameplay is significantly different (the most obvious example is when the genre is outright different between modes), this usually means that common notion about this game is tied to the mode that goes first in the menu and whose gameplay defines the primary game genre. We may look at all these and call a mode primary if all 3 aspects match. Or we may add more aspects!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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>Kwirk as an example. And that's what we call comparing Apples to Oranges. You want to know a better resolve for Kwirk? An "all puzzles" branch that clears everything the puzzle game offers obsoleting "Going Up?" in the process.
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feos wrote:
Another approach is indeed comparing the differences in gameplay those modes provide. For example, if gameplay is significantly different (the most obvious example is when the genre is outright different between modes), this usually means that common notion about this game is tied to the mode that goes first in the menu and whose gameplay defines the primary game genre.
I'm not completely convinced, but I can't find any obvious loophole.
Spikestuff wrote:
You want to know a better resolve for Kwirk? An "all puzzles" branch that clears everything the puzzle game offers obsoleting "Going Up?" in the process.
It seems to me that doing all modes in Kwirk should be branchless, like it happened for Private Eye, due to superseeding mechanic.
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Shouldn't this movie get the label "best ending", just like its precedessor? [3378] Genesis James Pond 3: Operation Starfish by Flip in 29:08.33
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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Not sure if it actually spends extra time on getting that ending.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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[1867] Arcade Metal Slug 4 "2 players" by X2poet in 17:11.97 [1841] Arcade Metal Slug 4 "2 players" by X2poet in 18:04.78 These movies are currently labeled as "2 players, best ending", however I wonder if it's really worth to include the "best ending part", as it's kind of trivial: after beating the last boss, if you manage to run out of the base before it collapses, you get the happy ending cinematic. So it's possible to simply stop inputs right after beating the boss, that would save some time but leave all the rest of the movie the same. So it in the end it would be a redundant to include such a branch, it's more an entertainment/tradeoff. What do you think about it?
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I know that for [3828] Genesis Comix Zone by Archanfel in 08:38.67, which has the exact same situation, the branch doesn’t have “best ending” but it has the “best ending” movie tag. I think this works.
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It only needs a label for a goal if it would be a separate branch from one without that goal. So yeah, remove.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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For a movie that achieves full-completion while using a specific amount of players, should the amount of players be placed before or after the full-completion part? For example, this movie: [3501] C64 Diamond Mine "all diamonds" by DrD2k9 in 17:51.69 Should it go as "all diamonds, 2 players" or "2 players, all diamonds"? By the way, in my opinion the latter is better, because the amount of players is a premise, while the full-completion is how the play concludes.
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If there will be obsoletion, 2P full completion can theoretically be obsoleted by 1P full completion, but 2P full completion can't be obsoleted by 2P any% (what the hell??! it's faster!!11). So full completion is more important, hence it should go first.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: edit: added separate discussion link
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Well, in the end I found only one publication that shows a precedent: [4161] Linux 1001 Spikes "4 players, all skulls" by keylie in 22:37.15
feos wrote:
2P full completion can theoretically be obsoleted by 1P full completion
Theoretically? I think there should be made a rule for either always having the obsoletion or always keeping two distinct branches. I think there should be a discussion about it. In my opinion, since the current policy for fastest-completion is to keep separate branches for the different amount of players, then it should be also done for full-completion, for a simple matter of consistency. Or is there any reason to apply a different policy? Anycase, let's continue this discussion in a more appropriate thread. Edit: and there you go.
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Sonic 3 movies lack the chosen character name from the label, for the movies that used both Sonic&Tails. Shouldn't they get mentioned in the label as well? Also... why do these movies have the "2 Players" tag, if both characters are actually used by the same player?...
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Why is [1999] Arcade Street Fighter Alpha 3 (USA) "Dramatic Battle, 2 players" in 5:21.44 by error1 rebranched the way it is? The mode already implies that it's using multiplayer since you can't really have a Dramatic Battle by yourself. Should also mention the fact that [939] Genesis Marble Madness (USA) "1 player" in 2:39.44 by SprintGod is not meant to have a branch. The two player mode is a competition mode of "who's the fastest", a sprint mode if you will. This one has already been reverted back to branchless after a quick check with other Staff members.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Why is [1999] Arcade Street Fighter Alpha 3 (USA) "Dramatic Battle, 2 players" in 5:21.44 by error1 rebranched the way it is? The mode already implies that it's using multiplayer since you can't really have a Dramatic Battle by yourself.
You can. https://streetfighter.fandom.com/wiki/Dramatic_Battle_Mode "If one player is playing alone, his partner will always be the same, but if there are two players participating, they can freely choose their characters."
Spikestuff wrote:
Should also mention the fact that [939] Genesis Marble Madness (USA) "1 player" in 2:39.44 by SprintGod is not meant to have a branch. The two player mode is a competition mode of "who's the fastest", a sprint mode if you will. This one has already been reverted back to branchless after a quick check with other Staff members.
Why wouldn't the 2 players mode be acceptable? Wouldn't that also result in beating in the game?
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Spikestuff wrote:
Should also mention the fact that [939] Genesis Marble Madness (USA) "1 player" in 2:39.44 by SprintGod is not meant to have a branch. The two player mode is a competition mode of "who's the fastest", a sprint mode if you will. This one has already been reverted back to branchless after a quick check with other Staff members.
Why wouldn't the 2 players mode be acceptable? Wouldn't that also result in beating in the game?
Do the 2 players interact in any way? Otherwise it's the same case as say SMB which feos told me years ago wouldn't need the player amount. EDIT: Looks like the two marbles can collide with each other. Hrm... I'm not entirely sure on this.
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Reading the submission text for the current Luigi's Mansion submission made me realize that the way we handle branchless publications is pretty inconsistent. It's so inconsistent that I can't actually explain how we currently do it, since it seems to vary wildly from game to game. I'll use Luigi's Mansion as the first example: [2587] GC Luigi's Mansion "Hidden Mansion" by solarplex in 10:11.85 [3090] GC Luigi's Mansion "Hidden Mansion, in bounds" by Malleoz in 54:21.70 The run currently labeled as "chest glitch" was branchless prior to the publication of the run that is now branchless. Reading the submission thread for the branchless run, it seems the discussion of this choice was all of two posts, and it led to something that doesn't quite make sense with how we handle other, similar situations. EDIT: I updated the branches here, this example no longer applies. There's also the fun situation that has been Aria of Sorrow branching: [1129] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "warp glitch" by klmz in 06:46.20 [1024] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "warp glitch" by zggzdydp in 12:06.73 [1478] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Kriole in 20:58.62 [456] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Atma in 27:45.57 This is not a single obsoletion chain, but as of me writing this post, it sure looks like one. The branches for AoS have been inconsistent since the start, and even right now it's tough to say exactly how it should be handled, as the "warp glitch" category now stands with a "game end glitch" run due to a new way of calling the ending without defeating the final boss. My proposal here is to consistently apply branchless in the same way we do for EarthBound: [4361] SNES EarthBound by illayaya in 57:17.02 [3769] SNES EarthBound "in bounds" by tutelarfiber7 in 3:10:11.57 The branchless run for EarthBound heavily uses out-of-bounds glitching, much like "chest glitch" Luigi's Mansion, while the much longer run that avoids OoB is explicitly labeled as such. This makes a lot more sense to me. Branchless, in my opinion, should be comparable to any%, no "game end glitch". That is, if a run lacks a branch, it should be assumed to be the fastest completion of a game under circumstances that do not involve an unnatural calling of a game's ending. With this, the new Luigi's Mansion submission and the current "chest glitch" publication would have their branches removed (let's not get into the Hidden Mansion discourse here), and the run that avoids OoB would be labeled as "inbounds" or something similar. Aria of Sorrow would still be tricky, but we could easily make a judgement call here and say that the current 20 minute publication can remain branchless, as we wouldn't necessarily accept a fastest no-GEG run (as far as I can tell, it would look the exact same as the GEG run, just with fighting the final boss). I suppose this is also a call for branches like "warps" and "1 key" to be removed as well, as I feel they're just redundant tags for any% when branchless should be handling their jobs. If we want to keep having explicitly assigned branches for any% movies, it honestly makes more sense to me to not have any movie be branchless at all, and just start universally using "any%" as a branch. God, this site's complicated sometimes, innit?
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There was a long chain of events that led to the current situation. In Thread #14601: Movies labeled "glitched" that shouldn't be a few users agreed to go back and change all branch labels, including obsoleted movies, according to some new system they came up with, without getting a proper community consensus. That resulted in https://i.imgur.com/J0WfHmC.png https://i.imgur.com/fizlbWn.png and other funny branches that made the staff team interfere and have a proper discussion: Thread #15203: "glitched" label vs. "no x glitch" label. Staff agreement was to stop using blank branch as an indication of any%. But community still halved on how to handle branch labels, so I suggested a solution that didn't blindly follow either side, and didn't force the other side to accept what they hated. I suggested to rely on statistics, and to replace the "glitched" label with something more descriptive. Major skip glitch (it's when we invented the term too) is not present in most games, and it's not a regular in-game option, so it's a rare thing in general and it needs to be labeled. But there are games where most movies use such a technique, for example SM64. So we just highlight which branch has unique goals: [2062] N64 Super Mario 64 "70 stars, no Backwards Long Jump" by Jesus, Kaylee, MICKEY_Vis11189, MoltovM, Nahoc, snark, sonicpacker, ToT, CeeSammerZ, coin2884, Eru, Goronem, Mokkori, Nekuran, Nothing693 & pasta in 42:58.52 stands out from all other SM64 branches by avoiding BLJ. Similar cases: [1937] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog "no zips" by Aglar in 17:36.58 [2950] GBA Sonic Advance "Tails, no Ultraspindash" by GoddessMaria in 13:33.54 [4057] NES Mega Man 2 "zipless" by warmCabin in 27:16.17 Some people were still unhappy, but the final thing we could do to reduce annoyance was creating a flag to unambiguously signify what the site counts as any% under our tier class rules: http://tasvideos.org/FastestCompletion.html So we actually don't use blank label for anything special. It's only left blank if there's no unique goal in a movie compared to other branches. Which is why I suggested to call it a trunk. It makes sense because there can't be 2 current publications with blank branches for the same game: to be able to distinguish them from one another we need to label one of them, or both of them, depending on rarity of their goals. But when we applied the new system, we did not update labels for obsoleted movies initially. Not that leaving them wrong was the goal, we just didn't get around to doing that until some years later. So what's happening with Aria of Sorrow is obsoleted movies not being relabeled to match the new (as of 2014) system. Movies with major skip glitches should be labeled to tell the nature of the glitch they use (not the glitch name, just its main effect on gameplay). Probably it's just "warp glitch". To me it's common sense to assign explicit labels to things that are unique, and to things that choose common options (like player count). Of course that will result in branchless movies not having goals in common across different games, because different games allow different goals, and the result may look inconsistent. Now "inbounds" became a label because it was a unique feature of the branches that have it. Even if there are several such branches for some game, it's still only featured in minority of branches. In the case of AoS, most branches use zips, so we don't highlight that. One branch uses death warp glitch, and we highlight that by its gameplay effect. And 2 branches ban zipping entirely, so we also highlight that. I hope this explains some wonders. If there are ways to improve the current system considering those past problems we used to have, I'm interested! And it's absolutely true that the system that was introduced after this thread was created is absolute nightmare: http://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#Structure Just (IMO) not in terms of labeling glitches. That part I at least understand and can easily explain how to apply.
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