http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Posts: 4083
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Niamek wrote:
When a new movie is submitted that has a routing to do. Do you expect the author to have done extensive routing testing like tested every possible routes before taking the one they did? Or they can do some routing and take a route that "makes sense and that it looks fast"?
In a summary, I would like to know what's the minimum of work behind a routing that is acceptable.
Let me start by saying I'm not a judge. Still, the minimum necessary work would probably be dependent on the game choice itself.
Some games with multiple route options have a very limited number of route choices (NES Super Mario Bros.). Others may have hundreds of possibilities (NES Key Quest).
To fully test every possibility for a given game may require an unreasonable degree of work to produce a valid TAS.
Thus my personal approach is to test the handful of routes that seem as though they would be fastest and chose the best from those. A good resource to help determining the best route can be via finding a real-time speedrun (though these aren't always the fastest routes).
As long as there aren't obvious routing improvements when compared to your resulting TAS, a judge will likely not reject it for routing reasons.
It's not uncommon for already published runs to obsoleted by better routing.
This is exactly correct.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
If no update has been made in many years and there is no indication that the developer is still working on it as far as you can find, then it can reasonably be considered finished. Contacting the developer, if at all possible, is a good step but is not necessary for most cases.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
grassini wrote:
This is vaultable regardless of entertainment, it's the any% glitchless everybody loves and knows.Good job, man.
Unless glitchless runs are not vaultable anymore.Thank you for making this! Happy new years, guys!
"glitchless" never was a vaultable category. Only any% (which includes glitches) and 100%/full completion (which glitchless is not).
That said, while I've not seen this movie, I personally don't foresee entertainment rate being a deal-breaking issue for publication here.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Posts: 4083
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I concur with Spikestuff and ThunderAxe31, between the no save/reset submission and this one, I would rather have this category instead, in favor of the other movie's category (assuming this movie doesn't run into other issues). And while the other movie does have some interesting strategies of its own (using Kazza and all), I'm not sure if it's worth publishing both categories, as there is quite some overlap in their broader goals.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Warp wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
That is not what I answered, because that is not an answer to the question you actually asked. What you asked was "if this game used puzzles rather than math, would it be accepted?", and that is the question I answered. You then repeated the same question with zero acknowledgement of the answer.
In your answer to that original question about the game containing puzzles instead of math problems, you referred to your previous post, in which you write:
Mothrayas wrote:
But the choice as to whether a game is educational or not is more than just a label on the box. It's a key facet behind game design decisions, behind visual appearance and prominence decisions, behind what the game designer wants to show to the user in order to make them absorb their educational contents as best as possible to the best of the designer's ability. There's a whole science behind this sort of design. And yes, if a game does exhibit that type of game design foremost, that makes it an educational game not fit for the Vault.
You are arguing that this is a primarily educational game, and such games are not fit for Vault.
Exactly what I claimed you answered.
Did I miss something?
Let's start again from the beginning. Bolded emphasis mine.
You posted:
Warp wrote:
It really is looking to me that if this game was otherwise identical, but had some puzzles instead of math problems, there would be no discussion and it would be accepted, but just because it has math instead of puzzles, it's somehow being rejected based solely on that, as if math in video games was banned from the site. This feels extremely strange to me, and makes no sense.
I answered:
Mothrayas wrote:
Please read my last post before this one. A game's design as an educational title is not an accident, and if this game were non-educational it would be radically different. What-ifs about hypothetical identical games that just happen to miss their most central design piece make no sense.
A few posts later:
Warp wrote:
If this game used some kind of simple puzzles instead of math problems, would it be eligible for Vault?
If the answer is yes, then what exactly is it about math problems that makes it non-eligible? I think the principle of "no educational games" is being enforced too strictly here.
Can you see how your question here was already answered in the prior post? Yes, I did say a lot of other things, but that's beside the point - the point is you were asking a question that I already answered directly to you.
Now, let's let this particular sub-discussion rest, there is nothing to gain here in either direction of any argument.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Please stop repeating questions while ignoring my answers.
Not being satisfied with an answer is not the same thing as ignoring it. If the answer is "this is an educational game, and educational games are not accepted", that's an "answer", but it's not one I'm happy with. As said, I'm suggesting to change that rule because it needlessly disqualifies perfectly good games like this one. (The rule doesn't need to be outright removed, just fine-tuned to not be so broad.)
That is not what I answered, because that is not an answer to the question you actually asked. What you asked was "if this game used puzzles rather than math, would it be accepted?", and that is the question I answered. You then repeated the same question with zero acknowledgement of the answer.
I'm fine if you find my answers dissatisfactory and want to comment on that; I'm not fine with you outright ignoring my answers while repeating identical questions.
Alyosha wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Nope, started out as "arithmetic assignments, in the same vein of those done as school assignments". At no point was any reference to what Math Blaster does referred to as arithmetic for non-educational purposes, until you simplified my statement to "arithmetic". Nice try, though.
Yeah I know, starting it off 'arithmetic assignments' is what I'm saying was wrong. It's not inherently assignments, it's just everyday arithmetic.
What the game does are textbook arithmetic assignments, of the same sort as those in school books, and the game has designed them for the same sort of use as school books (not just general everyday use of arithmetic). These are blatant facts, and any argument against this definition is pure nonsense.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Nope, started out as "arithmetic assignments, in the same vein of those done as school assignments". At no point was any reference to what Math Blaster does referred to as arithmetic for non-educational purposes, until you simplified my statement to "arithmetic". Nice try, though.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Alyosha wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
No part of YHTBTR includes school assignments. Reading on its own is not a school assignment. It only contains text in relation to gameplay, which is also not a school assignment. Therefore, it is not an educational game.
Math Blaster contains arithmetic assignments, in the same vein of those done as school assignments, as a primary gameplay element. Therefore, it is an educational game.
I honestly cannot make it any more obvious than this.
Arithmetic isn't just an assignment, heck I know people who haven't gone to school a day in their lives who do arithmetic of that exact form every day.
I'm calling out your usage of Technique 5. Thank you for turning "arithmetic (school) assignments" into "arithmetic", thereby proving to me you have no argument bar twisting my words. It's a good thing the rest of the post implies you are finished in this topic anyway, because I'm seeing this as a sign that I need not further try to debate with you on this issue.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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Bobo the King wrote:
Mothrayas wrote:
Precedent is flawed in quite a few ways, because judges do make mistakes and have made mistakes in the past.
If precedent overrode movie rules, single stage movies would be accepted, passwords to skip to the end of the game would be accepted, movies that do not clear the game would be accepted, and so on. There are many reasons why that would be a bad idea, and therefore adhering to written rules over blindly following precedent makes a lot more sense.
I agree that blindly following precedent would be a bad idea, but I think you may be missing the irony that you're "blindly" following a written rule that wasn't written all that carefully in the first place while the precedent is broad, not just applying to a single stage movie or a used password. While you and I agree that judges make mistakes, I think a strong argument could be made here that the mistake in the context of this run was in the written rule, not the precedent.
I'm not saying rules should be ditched in favor of precedent, just that precedent is all too easily discarded in favor of a rule when it appears that a judge does not wish to thoroughly defend their decision. It's a matter of how you weight the two.
The rule is plenty clear currently, and clarifies what degrees of educational elements may be accepted and what may not. The rule was also correctly applied in this case, I don't see the judge having made a mistake here.
I don't see previous precedents (ie Carmen Sandiego, in the circumstances it was published in) holding enough weight to sway my decision on this case or on how the rule must be enforced.
You can disagree with what the rule is, but it was followed correctly, as written and as in intent, with plenty of deliberation by the judge (as well as other judges) for the judgment of this movie.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Experienced Forum User, Moderator, Published Author, Expert player
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Alyosha wrote:
That's not an answer.
I'm asking what you see as those specific elements that exist in stage 2 of 'math blaster' that don't exist in 'you have to burn the rope' that transform it into a 'serious' game.
No part of YHTBTR includes school assignments. Reading on its own is not a school assignment. It only contains text in relation to gameplay, which is also not a school assignment. Therefore, it is not an educational game.
Math Blaster contains arithmetic assignments, in the same vein of those done as school assignments, as a primary gameplay element. Therefore, it is an educational game.
I honestly cannot make it any more obvious than this.
Bobo the King wrote:
Can I ask a more fundamental question? Why are written rules treated more seriously than precedent? I understand that rules are (supposed to be) unambiguous while precedent is "squishy", but I think we have here a clear case where this trend is upset. As Nach puts it, the ban on educational games was written to exclude "Sesame Street games". This game is better than that level. (Incidentally, even in the Popeye game cited by Mothrayas, I see what looks like nontrivial luck manipulation.) As for precedent, we have plenty of examples of games that are technically not educational but are otherwise bereft of entertainment value, displaying less interesting gameplay than what we see here. The rule says you should reject, precedent says you should accept.
I get that having written rules and adhering to them is vital to the success of a site like this, but we know that the admins are fallible and can write a well-intentioned rule that, by its letter, accomplishes the wrong thing.
Precedent is flawed in quite a few ways, because judges do make mistakes and have made mistakes in the past.
If precedent overrode movie rules, single stage movies would be accepted, passwords to skip to the end of the game would be accepted, movies that do not clear the game would be accepted, and so on. There are many reasons why that would be a bad idea, and therefore adhering to written rules over blindly following precedent makes a lot more sense.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
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@Bobo the King: This was already addressed a few posts after the one you linked.
Alyosha wrote:
@Mothrayas: Except the only 'real points' here are precisely about appearence. What differentiates 'you have to burn the rope' from level 2 of 'math blaster'? Both are platforming mixed with educational elements, one reading and another addition. If anything the math blaster stage is more of a 'serious' game since at least you can fail.
EDIT: oops, bobo the king posted in between, edittted for clarity.
I will add this one to the list of questions that I have already answered (directly to you, no less) but of which the answer was ignored. See paragraph 1 of my answer.
Mothrayas wrote:
Alyosha wrote:
Actually, many games require you to be able to read in order to understand and play. Reading and reading skills are certainly school subjects. As a current example, take [3590] SMS King's Quest: Quest for the Crown by BZero & Challenger in 03:07.46 . Played casually, this is basically little more then a big reading comprehension test. The only reason it's not classified as an educational game is because nobody called it that. If an edutainment company had published the exact same game and called it educational, would it suddenly become unpublishable?
Reading comprehension, mathematical calculation, historical knowledge, linguistic ability, problem-solving skills and so on are all various tests of the user's intelligence or knowledge. That of course does not mean that any use or test of them means it is designed or intended for education. You can design game mechanics surrounding any of these tests but do so for challenge purposes rather than education purposes. It's just how you design the game, how you present these tests to the user, what sorts of puzzles you make out of them.
But the choice as to whether a game is educational or not is more than just a label on the box. It's a key facet behind game design decisions, behind visual appearance and prominence decisions, behind what the game designer wants to show to the user in order to make them absorb their educational contents as best as possible to the best of the designer's ability. There's a whole science behind this sort of design. And yes, if a game does exhibit that type of game design foremost, that makes it an educational game not fit for the Vault.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
