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arflech wrote:
Has anyone suggested Halo or Halo 2? I'm watching a speedrun of Halo for Windows at SGDQ2014 and even the skips that can be done in real time are awe-inspiring.
Hourglass is nowhere even close to the point of being able to run Halo, let alone TAS it.
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HappyLee wrote:
You can see I broke the puzzle lots of times in the run, making it different than the original solution, and there's no solution that can be defined to be "right".
I think one of the problems is that most people can't see where puzzles are broken, since it requires such an intimate knowledge of the hack and the SMB engine to understand what is and isn't the "original solution" in this run. Glitches need to be used to play the game, so using a different glitch to skip part of a stage doesn't stand out nearly as much. I'll admit I'm one of those people, but for what it's worth, I did enjoy the run even if I don't know the first thing about the SMB engine. Even without knowing the finer details, it's not hard to see that every block and item and enemy has a purpose, and it's also not hard to see that making a hack like this requires an impressive amount of technical knowledge about SMB and its physics and glitches.
At least everyone agrees that the run has the same impressive amount of technical knowledge and effort behind it. There's a lot of stubborn and elitist backlash against the nature of the hack, definitely, but at least none of it is directed at the run itself.
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User movie #15601063153038125
The music in this game is way too good.
Just wanted to try my hand, but I couldn't get very far before I hit a roadblock with enemy manipulation. I don't think I'm going to work on a submittable movie any time soon, if at all, but as long as that Stage 1 track is going through my head I'll probably keep going with a test run. Or maybe I'll just optimize Stage 1 to the absolute best of my ability and stop there.
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Chamale wrote:
I think he's referring to the latest Pokemon Silver run, which uses ACE to warp to the final boss and skip the battle.
Fair point, I hadn't considered that.
This raises a question similar to the problem with first-gen Pokemon TASes. I considered doing an improvement to the no warp glitch run of Pokemon Blue, which would be a "no arbitrary code execution" run. The problem is that given what we understand of the game's code, we know now that the glitches used in that route involve getting the game to load certain RAM values which can be manipulated semi-arbitrarily to get unusual random encounters. Rather than arbitrary code execution, it's arbitrary data loading. The Pokemon ACE glitch doesn't involve memory corruption, but memory manipulation, and this seems like a bit of a grey area for a "no arbitrary code execution" route.
Well, that definitely is more of a gray area. If manipulating different random encounters is the most you can do given what you'd use in the route then it seems like it'd be okay. There's a difference between not knowing how to/not being able to use a known glitch to achieve ACE and knowing how to/being able to achieve ACE using that glitch but choosing not to.
Then again, I'm not a judge or an expert so my opinion shouldn't mean anything.
This does kinda call another topic into question about using things like warp glitches and light memory corruption (non-ACE) in 100% runs, but that's a discussion for another thread.
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I'm loving the rerecord counts on these two new movies. It certainly doesn't scream "I'm hiding the fact that I put no effort into my movies of a shitty, unentertaining game".
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Dyshonest wrote:
It is no different than allowing save corruption to give overpowered Pokemon/corrupt things and get no battles ever/etc
Not getting battles has nothing to do with any form of corruption, save or memory or otherwise. That's just simple luck manipulation.
I actually have an honest question/point for once and not some pseudo-psychological manipulation bullshit for my own enjoyment. The 96 exit SMW run uses glitches that you would consider memory corruption, namely null sprites and stunned sprites. These were used to lead to ACE before the chuck-eat method was found, and they quite obviously aren't used to the same effect in the 96 exit run. Since you're arguing that all memory corruption is ACE and there shouldn't be room for more than one memory corruption category, does that mean the current 96 exit run shouldn't exist alongside the ACE run?
If so, what 96 exit run WOULD exist alongside the ACE run if things were up to your standards? Would it have to be completely glitchless or just avoid anything that you consider memory corruption? And if not, would a hypothetical 96 exit ACE run obsolete it? And why would you let it stay around if it was using memory corruption, since there's already a run like that?
I'm just confused because your logic contradicts itself here. Your suggestion calls for the 96 exit run to both exist (as a 100% category) and to be removed (for using memory corruption, which is ACE, which would be redundant).
Also, something I just thought of: If this suggestion of yours was put into effect, how would it work in the context of the site? Would every judge have to agree that a movie corrupts the memory or uses a glitch that could lead to ACE? Or would only a single judge have to make that decision?
The former would ruin the entire point of the judging system. Your suggestion could be parsed as "skip everything or skip nothing, nothing in-between". Technically, group decisions on every movie could count as "skipping nothing" and single-judge decisions could count as "skipping everything", so fringe cases would be the in-between that isn't allowed on the site anymore. Every run would take longer to judge in this case and it'd be a bigger hassle for everyone involved.
If the judging system was kept the same, though, with only a single judge deciding what falls under the new policy and what doesn't, wouldn't that be even more of a hassle? The judges already disagree on a lot of matters, such as tier placement, so introducing a whole new gray area for disagreements would just create far, FAR more tension.
Consider it hyperbole if you want, but I think something like that could very well happen. It's simple enough to decide on something that you think would work, but you really do have to consider the long-term effects of any suggestion you're going to make and not just write everything off as a hyperbolic hypothetical scenario.
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The RTA would have to be a 9:52 or 9:53 to beat the TAS time. RTAs have roughly a 7.5 second advantage over TASes due to starting timing later (gaining control of Mario as opposed to console-on), but about 4 seconds of that is lost due to RTAs stopping timing later (losing control of Mario as opposed to ending input the same frame the last mecha-koopa is thrown). In other words, RTA timing has roughly a 3.5 second advantage over TAS timing.
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ACE can't be avoided though. Cloud glitch apparently always crashes the game to open bus, and as far as I can understand the game has to be manipulated back into working, meaning at least one piece of input is sent to open bus, meaning arbitrary code is executed because of the way open bus works.
...At least I think that's how it works? I could be wrong.
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Eszik wrote:
that's what real-time runners do, they use the cloud glitch to get a cloud (main effect) without using ACE (side-effect), and they don't try to use it.
It's not that they "don't try" to use ACE. ACE in general is literally impossible for a human being to do in real time on a console with an unmodded stock controller. If it WAS possible, RTA runners wouldn't just be satisfied with getting the cloud and still being able to play, they'd be trying to call the credits early in every run.
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I didn't see a thread for this game even though it was bandied about in the SNES Wishlist thread. Sorry if there is one already and I missed it.
Majuu Ou is a game that didn't get a stateside release, which is a shame because it's actually pretty awesome. This Let's Play is a good way to get familiar with the game, and there's also a tool-assisted longplay of sorts. Both are of the fan-translated version.
I took a quick shot at part of the first stage using the unaltered (J) ROM:
Link to videoUser movie #15451020196920296
It's just a test run with some small improvements to be made here and there.
Notes:
*It's probably barely noticeable but still worth mentioning: That is the fastest the main menu can be done. You can't press select to change over to the Options menu until the menu is fully "loaded", but once you press select you can press start on the next frame and it'll load the Options. It's a little weird that way.
*You want to be to the right of Bayer for that first cutscene. He charges into you and moves back to the left, then attempts to charge back into you, ending up on the right side of the screen. When you deplete his health, he always flies off upward and to the right, and as soon as he's offscreen you're allowed to move.
*Abel can fire a bullet every 5 frames, though lag sometimes gets in the way and it sometimes ends up being every 6 or 7 frames. I actually thought he could fire at 30hz since he does a lot of damage really quickly using rapid-fire, but I was mistaken. That being said, the Bayer battle can definitely be improved with more precise firing. Plus, defeating him earlier would get him offscreen earlier since in the movie he moves back to the left a bit before I take him down. Double improvement.
*Bullets don't hit instantly, they travel semi-realistically. I suppose that should be a given, but it doesn't look obvious given that bullets aren't seen until they hit an enemy.
*That roll after the battle puts Abel in the exact position he needs to be in. Any further to the right and he'd slowly strut backward to that position. Any further to the left and I'd have to slowly strut forward to that position.
*At the end of that first tunnel, when I drop down into the underground area, the screen always fades out at the same time. Falling in immediately isn't faster and not falling in immediately isn't slower. On a side note, that jump was actually the result of a desync, but I left it in because it doesn't waste any time.
*The water in the underground area actually pushes you back slightly, so it may be faster to go along the platforms even if it means stopping to shoot enemies. The zombies take two shots, or one shot and one hit from your wife-fairy. Wife-fairy comes in handy a lot since you can use her to attack while you're rolling, taking out enemies in your way and letting you roll more. It's a bit dicey though and doesn't always work.
*I'm sure the mini-boss spider thing can be done faster, I was just happy to get it killed in two cycles. The problem is its movement doesn't exactly mesh well with attacking it quickly, and getting too close means you get caught in its grasp, wasting a lot of time. The first descent is always the same, meaning I can get that charge attack out and keep firing, but the second descent homes into you, so I roll away as early as I can to not get caught. The first cycle in the fight is done with optimal shots while the second is just done with rapid-fire because, hey, I'm not submitting this.
*Rolling left gives an example of why wife-fairy is a bit dicey: As soon as she hits an enemy, whether or not it's alive, she retreats back to her normal position and has some cooldown. There's also a bit of a weird issue where sometimes you send her out and she barely goes out before coming back almost immediately.
*That terrifying giant miniboss at the end (where input stops after the first hit) can't be damaged while it's firing rocks, only when it lunges at you.
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That, and it's not really a new and exciting concept now that this run's been around a while and gotten a lot of attention. The submitted Jeopardy run was probably the best attempt anyone could have made at differentiating it from the Family Feud run and it was still rejected partially for being too similar.
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Dyshonest wrote:
You have Tourette's
Oh, right, I almost forgot. Coprolalia (compulsive swearing) isn't necessarily Tourette's. Tourette's is more of a blanket term for any compulsive motor tic (twitching, rapid blinking, muscle spasms, etc) or verbal tic (such as noise-making), which can include coprolalia but is actually quite uncommon among Tourette's sufferers.
That's not related to any of the matters at hand, it's just a pet peeve of mine when people use offensive psychological colloquialisms like that.
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Trap sprung.
You've been focusing on me throughout this whole discussion, you haven't said a word to anyone else since I started actually trying to prove you wrong. I've done that multiple times, and multiple people (everyone else in this thread) have been backing that up. The only things you've said to other people are making offhand comments that repeat the same things you've been saying in your previous posts. You don't have an argument. You know you don't have an argument. You've ignored every point, "disproved" everything we've been trying to say by just repeating yourself, and you're still attempting to claim victory and superiority even though you're still the only person arguing for your side.
The moment I stopped actually trying to argue my point and started "resorting to ad hominem" is when your smug superiority really started to show through, which is exactly what I was going for. It's the main sign of someone who knows they don't have an argument: They look for any excuse to feel like they have the upper hand. You're trying to make an example out of me, distracting people from what you were saying earlier in an attempt to get them to ally with you against me.
That post is just the icing on the cake, really. You've stopped even trying to argue your point even though other people are still asking you about it. Your entire focus has shifted to me and how much you want to feel superior to me.
"You have Tourette's"
"You accepted your inferiority"
"It's not hard to BE superior to someone who is so low"
In trying to take the so-called high ground, you're only making yourself look worse. You say I have to resort to petty insults and poor arguing tactics, but look at yourself right now and you're literally doing the same thing. You've forgotten all about the argument at hand in order to take some more shots at me. If you actually wanted the moral high ground, you would've just ignored me when I started the personal attacks and focused on the people actually bringing up points about the matter at hand. That could've actually worked.
Oh, something else that could've actually worked is if you listened to any of the points people said instead of pointing out arbitrary things like bad wording and implications, and if you stopped calling everything a hyperbole. It really does make it sound like you just learned that word and can't wait to tell everyone about it.
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jimsfriend wrote:
>>I was just giving you what you wanted
>>so I think next you're either gonna...
you just gave him the opportunity to feel smugly superior when he uses your own words back at you and then calls you a child.
You mean he wasn't feeling smugly superior throughout this whole argument?
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It looks like the first minute of kagemitsu's test run is used in this run, according to the comparison encode. He should probably be listed as a co-author.
Still, excellent run, glad to see AoS back in the queue. Yes vote of course.
Just to clarify, from what I can understand the Manticore double-kill happens because both its body and tail accept damage, and since they're hit on the same frame the game is tricked into thinking Manticore was killed twice. I could be wrong, though.
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Dyshonest wrote:
I don't have to resort to calling a person retarded or proceeding to foam at the mouth by (repetitively) using curse words. I am pretty sure you need to calm down, because you appear to be at the edge of your seat screaming at the monitor.
You said you were looking forward to more hyperbolic ad hominem, I was just giving you what you wanted. Also, since when was swearing considered an act of rage? It's how I talk. It's how everyone I know in real life talks. If you wanna picture me frothing at the mouth and screaming at my monitor, go right ahead. Whatever you need to boost your fragile little ego.
I see you're at the "feigning superiority" stage of internet arguments, so I think next you're either gonna claim you have better things to do in real life and leave us with a final "I'm done toying with you kids :)" or you're gonna backpedal and say you were trolling this entire time in a vague effort to save your self-esteem. Just get to that point and stop wasting everyone's time.
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Dyshonest wrote:
I can't wait for some more nonsensical, hyperbole-fueled ad hominem from you two again. Love you. :D
"If I throw out all these argument terms I learned from Wikipedia's list of logical fallacies, it'll make me sound smarter!"
It is more complicated than that and you know it.
Oh no, my limited knowledge on the code of a game I don't TAS has been discovered!
If one uses it to skip a stage/several, then another uses it to skip the entire game, why isn't the former obsoleted by the latter?
It is. You're just retarded and don't understand that skipping part of a stage doesn't mean skipping a stage.
ITT: We have no idea what we're talking about.
Correction: You have no idea what you're talking about.
ITT: Entering two stages, skipping them entirely beyond the first screen or two, then entering another and skipping the last half is playing through the game fully without skipping anything.
ITT: Completely misinterpreting my words, as usual.
This implies
Ah, ah, ah! There's your key word. Implication doesn't necessarily mean fact. It means you have such a weak argument that you have to resort to pointing out implications.
Might as well ban emulators and D-Pads in general in fear of multidirectional glitches. </sarcasm>
Do you get off on taking everything to an illogical extreme? Christ, you might as well be an inflation fetishist or something.
Except for the fact that the precedent is pointless and just encourages redundancy.
Ah yes, the redundancy of a run that's 9 minutes longer and shows off 10 more stages. It's nowhere even close to the most redundant run on the site.
Both runs use extensive memory corruption to either skip parts of the game or skip the entire game.
Both runs coexist.
Why?
To spite you, personally.
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Dyshonest wrote:
No, it skips the level via an item that, apparently, relies on ACE/some form of it (Open bus or something?) according to Masterjun.
You don't even know what you're talking about. ACE injects new Arbitrary Code into the game and Executes it. Orb glitch is eating a fucking enemy with Yoshi. It can be done on console in real time by a human being with a stock controller, likely with 100% consistency. Even if it counts as memory corruption in terms of the coding and the game, orb glitch shouldn't be considered the same as ACE.
You might want to read what you post before hitting Reply in the future. One sentence you're saying it skips nothing but then you acknowledge that it DOES skip things but "not an entire stage".
I said it didn't skip any levels, and it doesn't. It skips parts of levels, but not the entirety of levels. Every level is entered and played in some way. That's not skipping levels. Learn to read.
Let me explain it again. The SMW warps run takes the intended warp route through the game. Every stage is played and finished. The 12-minute Mega Man run does the same thing. It takes a route through the game, plays and finishes every stage. The point of a speedrun is to finish stages as fast as possible, and those runs do it faster than any before them. Skipping a stage would require bypassing it without ever entering it.
Let's take your logic to another hyperbolic level, since you're practically in love with that fucking word: In Super Mario Bros speedruns, the pipe in 1-1 is taken because it's faster to do so. The stage is finished faster than normally intended that way. Sure, it's not the result of a glitch, but it does "skip" part of the stage. By your logic, that means the entirety of Stage 1-1 is skipped. By your logic, ANY game with a shortcut through any level means the entire level is skipped, whether it's a glitch or not.
I never said the ALttP example involved memory corruption, could you show me where I did...? Using it to go out-of-bounds and using it to gain a miniscule time boost when walking in straight directions are pretty different.
And I never said you said that. Could you show me where I did? I was pointing out that your comparison doesn't make sense because SMW deals with memory corruption and ALttP doesn't. Why bother bringing it up in the first place when they don't even compare? Hell, I actually GAVE it a little bit of credence by pointing out that both ALttP runs use pretty much the same exact glitch to different effect. It's more of a credible example of your argument than the SMW runs are.
Assuming your argument is "the SMW warps run should be obsoleted because it doesn't use memory corruption to its full potential, as seen in the ACE run", then someone else could just as easily say "the ALttP all dungeons run should be obsoleted because it doesn't use multi-directional input to its full potential, as seen in the glitched run".
Using your newly-made hyperbole example the X-Ray in Super Metroid should be banned in speedruns because it could lead to ACE/memory corruption.
What the fuck kind of point are you trying to make here? What hyperbole example? The only hyperbole I used was saying that Super Metroid has a lot of published categories, which it does, and only one of them is a glitched category. How does that lead to what you said? How does anything I said in that post lead to what you said?
Okay, let's go along with it for a moment. Is there any reason to get X-Ray in a non-100% or glitched run? Most likely not. The only two reasons you'd get it are to abuse its ACE potential and so it counts toward 100% completion. So, well, yeah, an item normally useless to speedrunners and speedruns should probably be banned because it wastes time to pick up and doesn't add any serious benefit unless you were specifically corrupting memory with it.
Seriously, did I misunderstand something here?
Except for the fact that we now have a precedent that runs using less efficient forms of the same glitch (both Mega Man runs), or glitch-form (ACE in particular. See: Pokemon Yellow and then the Red/Blue one that also ends the game via ACE, it just reaches ACE in a slower, different manner) may be published side-by-side.
Okay. You recognize we have a precedent for it, and I feel like no matter how much I try to explain you won't understand that we NEED that precedent, so I'm not going to bother.
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