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got4n wrote:
Samsara wrote:
got4n wrote:
Samsara wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
I get the feeling every single player that submits a terrible TAS as his first attempt and then gets taught by posters never goes on to learn anything. Is there a counter-example of that?
Rocky start, but the Rayman 3 and NSMBWii runs pretty much proven you've learned from your past mistakes. Haven't seen that in... well, any other TASer really.
Now if only that kind of #toptierturnaround can happen in some of the more recent submitters...
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Do the pods always spawn on the same frame no matter what, or can they be manipulated? If they're deterministic, you might have to just accept that you can't beat it and work on making the waiting period entertaining.
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Anywhere it could save time, I'd assume. I don't think it'd be incorporated into any realtime routes due to requiring a second player, or at least a second Wiimote and some extreme dexterity.
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got4n wrote:
Samsara wrote:
ALAKTORN wrote:
I get the feeling every single player that submits a terrible TAS as his first attempt and then gets taught by posters never goes on to learn anything. Is there a counter-example of that?
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You don't need programming skills. I don't have any. I've never been interested in programming/coding and I don't think I ever really will be. Then again, my runs aren't that great so maybe I'm not the best person to talk about it.
I can say that RAM search and RAM watch are simple to pick up even if you don't know anything about them. You can figure out a lot of useful values just through trial and error. It doesn't take more than a tutorial or two to learn how to do it, and you only need basic RAM search knowledge to learn most of the values you want for a game.
As for RNG... You really just need patience to manipulate it. For the most part, RNG changes every frame, so you can just test every frame to see the earliest point where you get your desired result. If that's not working, you might have to try changing a lot of other things: Taking damage, different forms of movement to create dust, killing or avoiding enemies... It's time-consuming without knowing the RNG address, but definitely possible.
Barring that, if everything's too hard to understand, you can just ask politely for help in the game's thread. Some nice person will eventually show up and give you the information you're looking for, and possibly far more than that.
just stay the hell out of the Metroid Prime thread if you want nice people
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ALAKTORN wrote:
I get the feeling every single player that submits a terrible TAS as his first attempt and then gets taught by posters never goes on to learn anything. Is there a counter-example of that?
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ais523 wrote:
This means that posts like TheMG2's are very useful; it could have been worded a little less harshly, but the actual content ("this is probably the best way to become more knowledgeable about the game") is probably good advice that's worth taking.
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. I could have worded my comments less harshly as well, admittedly, and I apologize for that. Some of the posting just really doesn't sit right with me. Advice is definitely fine, encouraged even! Criticism is okay too, though as I said before, there's nothing to criticize right now so it's really out of place to start trying to correct things that haven't even happened yet. Explicitly telling people you don't have high hopes for the run, though? I feel like that's crossing the line. To me, it's a step short of telling someone they suck.
Maybe it's just me, but if I were trying to learn a new game and a bunch of highly-respected people in the community told me it was nearly impossible to understand without years of experience and that they weren't expecting anything good out of me, I wouldn't want to learn that game at all anymore. Hell, I'd probably stop speedrunning altogether. The psychological impact can be astounding on certain people.
Like I said, it'd be much more helpful to be active influences on the run instead of just telling everyone to look things up themselves. As the "people who know most about the game", they'll be researching you know anyway, you might as well elaborate on it in a way they'll understand. Have a little faith in the team, help them when they ask. Hell, set up a Skype chat or an IRC room or something so you can all discuss things in real time. Anything would be better than what I've been seeing.
That's all I'm going to say. Leaving this thread for good now.
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Miles wrote:
If you have nothing to do but complain about warranted criticism then please go away.
If you have nothing to do but rehash the same "warranted criticism" in every post then please go away.
What warrants your """"criticism"""", anyway? What warrants multiple posts that amount to nothing more than "please research the game"? What does it add to the discussion? What is there to discuss, even? There hasn't even been any work put into the movie and there's already so much negativity being thrown about.
You're telling a group of people known to research the hell out of the games they TAS to... research the hell out of a game they're TASing. Is that really necessary? Is it necessary to have multiple people say it in separate posts? What is that supposed to accomplish aside from being extremely demotivating and setting an unnecessarily high quality standard for a run that, shockingly, is going to beat all existing records by default?
You know what would be helpful? Actually talking about the physics and mechanics and glitches, explaining things in a way that's easy to understand for the group, and leaving all the bullshit "this isn't going to be entertaining" and "I don't have high hopes for this" comments out. This is a game you're supposed to love and cherish, you should be excited that the run is coming. If you're going to pull that elitism routine, then at least wait until a WIP comes out so you actually have something to criticize.
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niamek wrote:
If the lists were better, I'd vote more.
So an extremely minor and easily solvable inconvenience is stopping you from supporting the runs you really like?
...Seriously, why do we trust post-publication ratings?
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jlun2 wrote:
If you abandon tiers, at least somehow come up with a system that also let's bad games get published, since it was the main purpose of such.
We don't need a "system" that "lets bad games get published". The best thing Vault did was provide an excuse to accept runs we should have always accepted. Otherwise, all it does is tell people "Hey, these are boring runs, don't watch them!" We can keep the exact same judging criteria even if we drop the Vault, nothing would have to change since we already have the rules in place.
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Spikestuff wrote:
I saw the location and was like "I should actually add something childish and immature within my post" that's where that Grammar Nazi became a part of it.
I know that on the internet nothing can be read the way you wanted it to be so it will always come out wrong.
The problem with the internet is that no matter how obviously childish or immature or stupid you act, people will always take you seriously unless you specifically point out your intentions. You could misspell every word in your sentence by an over-exaggerated amount to be funny and someone will still come in, correct every word, then tell you to kill yourself. That's the internet.
...Anyway, the run: Voted yes, absolutely excellent.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
The same thing happened with Moon Crystal: JXQ's great run was automatically Vaulted when the system was implemented. I save less than 4 seconds mostly through reducing lag and it gets Moons. So maybe the 4 minute improvement really was too much!
It gets even better when looking through obsoletion chains. Look through Wrath of the Black Manta: Moon run obsoletes Vault run which obsoleted... a Moon run... which obsoleted a Moon run. Same goes for the GBC Spongebob game: Moon obsoletes Vault obsoletes Moon obsoletes Moon. Even glitched A Link to the Past's history has some Moon/Vault/Moon switching.
Mothrayas wrote:
Current entertainment rating is 6.1 (excluding author's rating). So far, he isn't exactly far off.
Hydlide's entertainment rating: 5.9 (Vault)
A Boy and his Blob's entertainment rating: 5.7 (Moon)
Q*Bert's entertainment rating: 5.5 (Moon)
I agree, that isn't exactly far off. It's not THAT much higher than some recent Moon runs.
Let's go a bit further: This Metal Slug run was Vaulted with a 7.3 entertainment rating. Doc Louis' Punch-Out has a 6.3 entertainment rating. Traysia is sitting comfortably at 6.5 for entertainment, same with Tiny Toons. Ghosts n' Goblins has 6.2 entertainment. 6.1 for Advance Wars, another 6.2 for Pepsiman, and another 6.1 for Rollergames.
It goes both ways: Glitchless Dragon Warrior 3 has a 4.8 entertainment rating. A 5.3 for Chocobo Racing and Track and Field. A staggeringly low 4.5 for Metal Mech. And let's not forget the classic Riddick Bowe Boxing, with its astonishing entertainment rating of 4!
Why do we trust ratings so much?
People rarely rate runs after publication and even when they do, bias plays a huge part in it. Moon runs are rated higher, popular games are rated more, authors who have been proven to make good runs in the past always get high tech quality ratings, some authors rate their own runs, some people still think liking a run means 10s in both categories and disliking a run means 0 in both categories... I would never trust post-publication tier ratings for tier placement. The snap judgements in the thread are much better for that.
FractalFusion wrote:
I feel that there is a consistent lack of respect going on within the TASVideos community at so many levels, not that this is a new or surprising thing. In particular, I think that judges should be supporting each other, not tearing each other down.
Have the judges ever talked to each other about how to judge a movie before placing their verdict? I'm honestly curious, it seems like everyone just kind of judges on their own without asking for anyone else's opinion. That's kind of bad when you think about it. Shouldn't the entire team talk about each run? It could just be something simple like setting up a judging IRC channel or a Skype chat to talk about new runs.
If this is already happening, then why is there always so much dispute?
ALAKTORN wrote:
You’re too sensitive. Heated discussions isn’t tearing each other down.
I prefer honest opinions over faked kindness.
Honest opinions or not, it leaves a really bad mark on the site when the people specifically picked to judge movies can't agree on things and argue about it publically. Shouldn't a group of judges following the same criteria arrive at the same result?
Honestly, I've had a lot of criticism about the judging system. I wasn't expecting a mistiered Hydlide run of all things to jumpstart a discussion about it, though.
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dunnius wrote:
The problem that I have with vaulting something is that it ends up hidden, and so it is less likely to get voted on.
To be fair, there are several Moon runs from months back that don't even have ratings displayed yet. People only really rate either popular games or really entertaining games. That being said, this is still valid criticism, and it's part of why I don't even support the Vault tier at all. It's discouraging in my opinion. No one wants to spend weeks on a really good movie only to have it end up in a section of the site that isn't even listed by default.
The big problem is that the defining factor of Moon VS Vault is the game itself, and that's kind of arbitrary when you really think about it. A run is tiered according to the game itself, not according to the run. People vote based on the game itself, not on the run. Highly optimized runs of bad games still get awful scores, while a less-optimized run of a "good" game will get much better scores. I'm sure now that this movie is published and Vaulted, it's just going to end up ignored with a low score even though it's a huge, well-done improvement that I found pretty entertaining even without watching the last one for comparison.
It'd be nice if there were another discussion thread about the tiering system now that it's been a while since its implementation. Not in this thread, obviously, but given all the disagreements and arguments over tiering I've been seeing as of late it might be wise to step back and take another look at it.
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It's absolutely not acceptable.
It was made on Snes9x 1.43, which is horribly inaccurate and not accepted on the site anymore. The intro was left in. No credit was given to anyone in this thread, even though he uses tricks discovered and talked about here. It's done on the (E) version, which is MUCH slower than the (J) version due to PAL timing and slower text. Lemon's (J) test run earlier in the thread is actually faster than this by... Offhand, I wanna say 10 minutes or so? And Lemon wasn't even using the diagonal boost movement trick. An optimized (J) run would be around 3 hours real time, not just "a few minutes" shorter like Saturn said in the comments on the Youtube vid.
And the worst part is Saturn's acting like it's a huge favor to the community (typical of gigantic narcissists like him), which it isn't. Nothing can be gleaned from it: It's just a shitty 30fps Youtube video. There's no input file attached, nothing we can study for a full run, no list of memory addresses or any notes on the run at all. He literally just came in and said "Hey, look at how awesome I am! I and I alone did this run everyone wanted to see! Praise me!"
A good run of this game will happen someday, don't worry.
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User movie #17951974419192999
Haven't been much in the TASing mood so here's my current progress. I have yet to attempt any of the Stage 6 spawn pattern manipulation in this movie. If anyone wants to take a crack at it then go right ahead, you'll get full co-author credit if you get it done. Admittedly I'd like to tackle Stage 7 myself, but I'll be caught up in RTA stuff for the next couple weeks so it'll be a while even if someone else comes in.
This is going to be finished no matter what, though.
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Just try every frame and find the earliest one that works. It's tedious, but it's optimal. You don't need sound or sound cues or anything for a TAS unless you're moving/playing along to the music for entertainment.
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Zeupar wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Haha, wow, I'm a complete dick in half of my posts and I don't even think I've said anything that offensive to anyone!
That wasn't the case a few months ago. What has turned you into a right creep? I want the Samsara from the Run Saber days back. :(
Things change over 4-5 years, yo. I've been through a hell of a lot. I'd rather not turn this discussion thread into The Many Woes of Some Douchebag On The Internet so I'll just leave it there.
Plus, you don't want Run Saber Samsara back. His run has at least 30 seconds of known improvements. That's shameful.
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What point are you trying to make anyway? The game is so shit that it shouldn't be on the site? The examples listed above prove that pretty much any non-ROM hack is eligible for the Vault category at least. "Bad game choice" is rarely used as a reason for rejection anymore because of that. On top of that, runs are never un-published for any reason so that little tangent isn't really going to give you the result you want. You claim this has been your home page for five years and you're not even familiar with the basic submission/publication rules?
ericjsepulveda wrote:
Is this not a garbage TAS? In respect for tasvideos.org I purpose this TAS video be removed from the site.
Wait, I just noticed this. Haha, wow, I'm a complete dick in half of my posts and I don't even think I've said anything that offensive to anyone that wasn't rambling about ACE!
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