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NitroGenesis wrote:
I can't participate due to a lack of laptop, but the game's homebrew, right?
Sorry to hear you don't have a laptop - maybe you can bum one? :) All I can say about the game is that I have contacted the authors and the ROM file can be legally redistributed. More details on the exact arrangement will be provided when the name of the game has been announced.
RobynS wrote:
thanks, does this means that BizHawk's timing of the game will be the judged one?
Because the script is always going to add one frame to any .fm2's it judges to bring the FCEUX movie to be the same length as BizHawk with the QuickNES core, yes - the actual movie length for the purposes of the competition will be based on BizHawk. I'll add links to each sanctioned emulator to my initial post.
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RobynS wrote:
Shouldn't just one emulator be decided? Are there not timing diffs between BizHawk and FCEUX.
I've done some testing and BizHawk requires exactly 1 extra frame of no input at the start of the movie. In fact, the auto-judging script is a BizHawk Lua script that accepts both formats but adds one frame to any .fm2 files it imports. Testing so far has not shown any other desyncs or time differences throughout the entire run, so we should be good to go. Good question, though!
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(This is a test post of what will go on the front page in the TASVideos News column, feel free to ignore or suggest changes.)
A normal TAS is like a grand master in an untimed chess match playing perfectly. A speed TAS is like the same grand master playing speed chess slightly less perfectly. At the end of the SGDQ 2015 TASBot block on Saturday Aug. 1 an NES game and a ~4 hour time limit will be announced during which participants will be able to submit a BizHawk or FCEUX movie file, with the winning submission played back directly following Super Metroid. More details can be found in the competition announcement.
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Zurreco wrote:
Are you going to select a game that has simple movement mechanics?
Finding a game with good attributes has thus far been the hardest part of organizing this event. I spent an extensive amount of time researching games for this event to find one that could be legally distributed, relatively short, simple to understand, and fun to play. I feel that I've made a good choice based on the feedback I've received from individuals who have volunteered to be beta runners for me. I know from my own experience testing out the target game that the movement mechanics are certainly simple enough to understand in the allotted time, although I also anticipate that given more time there will be tricks I haven't discovered yet that should make for a good TAS.
Thanks for the interest - I hope you're able to participate!
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Edit: The competition is over! The game was Streemerz in Streeeeemerz mode used with the permission of the creator Arthur 'Mr. Podunkian' Lee and thefox who ported it to the NES. There were over 1,000 downloads of Streemerz from our mirror and over 150 legit submissions completed the game. While there were a number of problems with the TASJudy script we were able to determine in the end that Mothrayas was the winner (despite preliminary results that kaizoman had won). A proper real submission of the category was made with the help of multiple authors and overall feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Thanks to everyone who helped make this possible and to everyone who participated!
Mothrayas later made a ghost encode showing the top 10 finishers that's highly worth watching:
Link to video
And Bisqwit made an encode showing different strategies in each room (for the runs done in FCEUX):
Link to video
The original post is below:
I'm happy to announce that there will be an officially sanctioned speed TASing race starting at the end of the TASBot run at SGDQ 2015 sometime on August 1st. From the trial speed TAS race description: In chess, a grand master in an untimed match may take an extremely long time to think out what will happen next and rewind in their head to plan out a game. In a a speed chess scenario, the same grand master has only a limited amount of time to consider each move. Speed TAS'ing is like speed chess - the TAS'er has a limited amount of time to TAS a game, so efficiency with researching the target game and using TAS tools is required.
Here's how this competition will work:
The target game will be announced at the end of the TASBot block (consult the schedule as the time will shift)
The (legally redistributable) NES ROM file will be posted on TASVideos.org along with instructions
Participants will have a minimum of 4 hours (likely closer to 5) to submit a BizHawk (default QuickNES core) or FCEUX movie file that completes the game
The soft cutoff will be an announcement I'll make between Mario 64 and Super Metroid
The hard cutoff will be shortly after said announcement, i.e. there will be a minimal grace period likely ending right at the actual start of Super Metroid
Submissions will be judged and organized by time to last input using an automated bot that will ensure the ending screen has been reached
The single fastest submission will be verified and subsequently replayed at SGDQ directly following Super Metroid (during the setup time)
There will be many more details in the instructions that will be posted when the competition starts, but here are some pointers on the game in question:
The game can be completed in under 6 minutes - how much under 6 minutes is the interesting question
There is an existing TAS movie file that is related to the target game that can be referenced for research, but any research you do will have to be done in the same timelimit for creating the TAS so time management will be critical
The game is challenging but fun to play and should be enjoyable to go through with TAS tools
Perfection is not possible with a short timeframe; consider taking shortcuts and using all of the tools at your disposal, including turbo button presses if they help
It may be very wise to complete a very sloppy playthrough using savestates to get a good feel for the game length to help in knowing how much time you have to optimize the run
This is the first attempt at doing this in front of a live audience with a set timer so things may go wrong; I ask for grace in advance in case something goes catastrophically sideways, such as 30,000 people slashdotting the site or delays in announcing the winning submission due to technical difficulties. With that said I'm expecting this to be a lot of fun and I'm looking forward to the competition. If you have any questions, please feel free to post below. Thanks, and enjoy!
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Aktan has created an amazing encode for Sonic Advance that is absolutely fantastic. After discussing with RGamma and Aktan I'll use the Modern HQ encode of Ikaruga - I was originally worried it was too muddy but I was coming from an unfair bias of having played Ikaruga on Steam and I'm now convinced that the encode is faithful to the Game Cube graphics. This means I now have all of the encodes I need.
Solarplex has made substantial progress on an auto-judging Lua script for the speed TASing competition but I haven't had the same success in finding a volunteer to write an upload page. In brief, I need someone to write a simple upload page for use on TASVideos.org during the competition that takes only BizHawk and FCEUX movie files (preferably unzipped) and places them in a location that Solarplex's script can read, i.e. a simple folder structure. The same page will need some introductory text that I will provide as well as allow downloading the legally redistributable ROM file of the target game.
I did another live run-through of demonstrating TASing tools using Mega Man in front of a live audience, this time with a coffee social group at a local Petaluma workspace. The audience was primarily not video game players and I ran over by a minute so I need to keep practicing. The 5 minute limit is going to be very tight for this, but I just can't spare any more time out of the setup time.
Endrift will be coming up this weekend to do a runthrough of the console verification of Sonic Advance and we'll practice synchronizing the encode from Aktan and the console verification playback. Thanks, Endrift!
The remaining areas of concern I have are that I really don't have a great grip on some of the things I should be talking about with the commentators. I've reached out to each of the couch commentators but haven't received a response just yet as most are busy preparing for the event as well, so practice for that will have to take place once I arrive. I'm concerned that I won't have enough time to fully comprehend some of the tricks used in Mega Man and Sonic Advance, and even for Ikaruga I'll need to find the right balance in talking about the difficulty of running the game with the couch commentator and splitting away to explain the speed TASing race. I want to do the best job I can and these are the areas that I know still need work.
Thanks to everyone for all of the support - more updates as they become available.
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Some updates - Aktan is helping out with the encodes, which have shifted somewhat over the last 24 hours as we discussed with CoolMatty and ironed out what was needed and we're still ironing out things like whether subtitles are needed. Solarplex is helping me work out what it will take to judge submissions automatically in BizHawk; we now know that importing an .fm2 from FCEUX into BizHawk only requires adding a single frame to allow it to sync so we can do all automated judging in BizHawk.
feos wrote:
- What resolution?
- Let me try.
- Let me try, but it'll have lower priority than the above 2.
Feos, you're welcome to assist with the first two tasks with Aktan and Solarplex respectively. If you'd like to be a beta tester for the contest and be willing to be excluded from participating please contact me privately. Thanks!
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It's been a while so it's time for a status update. First, the majority of my preparation time as of late has been devoted to the speed TAS race, and I'm very happy to say that I've identified the NES game that will be used for the contest. It took me a long time to find something that could be freely distributed and is of an appropriate length but I've found a fantastic choice that's fun to TAS and can be completed in the right amount of time. I've cleared the contest with GDQ staff as well as TASVideos staff and I can now announce that the contest will start at the end of Ikaruga and will run for a bit more than 4 hours through the end of Super Mario 64 (I'll give grace and officially stop submissions after the last player has completed the game).
Because there's always long setup time for the Super Metroid race I'll likely make an official announcement between Super Mario 64 and the start of the Super Metroid that the race has ended with some statistics about the number of entries, probably re-explaining what the race was about as viewership will be near its highest. I'll announce that the winning result will be shown after the Super Metroid race concludes. During Super Metroid I'll encode it as a WebM format that the GDQ tech crew can directly play inside a stream layout view; it has yet to be determined if I'll be doing a single video or a race between the top two entrants or if Tompa's video will be guaranteed to be shown or not (it hasn't been promoted that way yet and I want to confirm with Tompa that he's avaialble and with the tech crew that there is layout space).
Technical info: To ensure that TASVideos.org doesn't crash, Nach will be switching the site to static mode. We're still working on a submission handling method but I've determined a memory address in the target game that goes to a specific value when the game has been completed which we can use to automatically judge submissions with a script. The first pass will accept but silently discard movies longer than a known very sloppy completion time and the second pass will verify movies using a Lua script, hopefully in both BizHawk and FCEUX to allow both emulators to be used. I hope to encode the two fastest movies and play them back as a race which also allows some wiggle room in case emulation differences between the two emulators becomes the determining factor in game completion time. There's still more work to be done on this front and I'm more than willing to get some help from some volunteers.
In non-race related news, I'll be contacting the couch commentators to organize stream practices this week. It will be far easier to practice on-site but I'm hoping to at least make a Google Hangouts style introduction and walk through each game at least once prior to the event. I did a practice run through explaining TASing with Rockman in front of a live audience at a recent NBLUG.org meeting and I took over 10 minutes so I still have some trimming to do to condense it down to less than 5 minutes. I still need to practice transitioning between games but I suspect that will have to happen after I'm at the event to be able to get a sense of how long some of the transitions will take.
Things I need help with if people are willing:
- I need a high-quality encode of the camhack version of Sonic Advance in WebM format, either by transcoding an existing video file or re-dumping it
- I need help with Lua scripting to automate the speed TAS race judging
- I need a volunteer who is reputable and can keep a secret well to run through the target game to provide feedback on their experience so I can be better prepared for how people other than myself will approach the game; this person will have my thanks but unfortunately will be restricted from participating in the actual event for hopefully obvious reasons :)
- EVERYONE: If you have the ability to promote SGDQ in general, please go to http://imgur.com/a/dWcAZ and post the promotional images on web properties you have control over; TASVideos will display the banner a week or so prior to the event pending me prodding Nach a bit
That's it for now - more updates as they become available, and feel free to ask questions as they always seem to help me sharpen what I need to be focusing on. Thanks!
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endrift wrote:
E] Looks like I'm going to have to write some code to do the unpause, and beyond that writing a trigger module doesn't look too bad.
Don't go too out of your way to make this happen, it's a way higher priority for replay to be consistent and reliable than it is to have them synchronized exactly. I will likely set it up so that the audio of only one of the runs is played back, which should be sufficient. If this is something you *want* to do, I definitely won't stop you, because I think it'd be cool. :) Thanks!
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The first live stream suffered from a bad microphone situation, so I invested in a USB headset (it's not comofortable but it does have a good mic, so that's a start). The second stream attempt was still lightly attended, which was for the best as I was still hacking around a few things. I did get the emulator into a sensible place by hacking the code a bit to advance one frame every 160 ms the button is held down, which is long enough I can successfully press it for just one frame but not so long it's unusuable. I'm still hoping for some improvements prior to the marathon if things go well.
I learned a few technical things about Rockman I'll detail in this paragraph. There are 8 frames of lag with the first frame of input at frame 9 (hitting start to get past the title screen). Frame 142 is the first frame input is accepted on the level accept screen, and it seems like the best method of advancing to Bombman is left wait left wait left wait select, but I need to confirm this. At Bombman stage, frame 768 is the first frame that responds to input (namely, the start button), so I start holding right there and jump at frame 809, holding jump and right until frame 827 and firing on frame 828. After that point, there are a couple of different item drops that are obtainbale depending on what directions are pressed.
My goal is to take the information I've learned above and practice going through those steps as fast as possible, as in, practically speedrunning TAS'ing by memorizing the button presses so I can fluidly explain what's going on as quickly as possible. I want to get to the point described above of firing at the first enemy on the Bombman level and demonstrate luck manipulation by forcing the enemy to give me different drops. From there, I'll replay the short segment to demonstrate the level of perfection and show how a few minutes of realtime human effort ends up being a very short segment, highlighting how TAS'ers and realtime runners use different skills to do things "quickly".
From there I'll need to quickly transition to Sonic Advance, which could be a bit tricky as I won't have an opportunity to test the hardware board until I arrive on Thrusday night. I'll hammer out how to synchronize the realtime run and the camhack run - perhaps endrift has an idea on how we might trigger this, knowing that there are a different number of lag frames on the console variant (I won't be able to get it frame perfect, but I'm hoping to get somewhat close, so perhaps simply doing a 3-2-1-go countdown is fine).
I now have a verified Ikaruga commentator, so I have couch commentary for all three runs at this point. We'll see how the couch rounds out at the event. Progress every week is a good thing - more to come.
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I set up my first Twitch stream in Linux and demonstrated my complete lack of preparation in front of 4-5 viewers, who watched patiently for a good 45 minutes while I delt with microphone issues, button mapping issues, FCEUX issues, and my own lack of skill at TAS'ing. You'd think I'd be faster at it by now. :)
To rephrase, this was a dry run at seeing what talking about tool-assisted techinques and ideas would lok like, and even after I got most of the technical issues worked out it still took me far too long to explain the basiscs of item drops. I'll be tightening things up a bit so I can quickly go thorugh "this is the first frame you can start the game - TAS's are about perfection, so unless you're manipulating something you always start as soon as you can". I want to be able to smoothly demonstrate item drops, so I need to find the level that has an easily hit enemy relatively early in the level that can be easily manipulated in various ways, preferably both in movement and in the item drop.
One of the things I set up was my Xbox 360 controller connected using Antimicro to map to keyboard keys to allow me to control frame advance and all gamepad functions from the controller. This worked well, but it was awkward trying to show it to my laptop's camera, so if I decide to do that for the marathon I may have to make a special request for a controller cam (and if I do that, I need to make that special request earlier rather than later). I think it's worth showing things using a controller as most realtime runners would likely be more familiar with that method but I suppose I'd be just fine with keyboard as well.
I'm still dealing with some FCEUX issues which I've detailed in the emulator development forum but I have some time to potentially work through those issues and I may have other workarounds if Linux FCEUX doesn't make it in time, so I'm not too worried there. What I am concerned about is I haven't even started on prep work for commentary on Sonic Advance or Ikaruga, so I'll be getting to that soonish. Thanks again to everyone for the support and feel free to send comments or constructive criticism my way - I figure the more input I get the better this will turn out. More updates soon
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I worked with Invariel to try to find a workaround but the only workaround we came up with involves changing the button repeat to a fixed speed, which turned out to be too slow when I tested it "under pressure". I've been hanging out in #fceu and I'm more than willing to file a bug as needed. I would prefer to showcase Linux if I can get things stable enough, but if it's risky I'll have to resort to Crossover Linux (WINE) or VMWare Workstation in Unity mode or something. We'll see...
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I'm preparing for SGDQ 2015 and my intent is to use FCEUX in Linux for Mega Man / Rockman, but there's one issue causing me heartache - holding down the frame advance button doesn't play at 100% (or whatever the current + / - set emulation speed is), it plays at turbo speeds. I've tried every option I can think of at the command line and I've even compiled 2.2.3 from source but the issue persists. The delay between when it advances one frame and when it goes turbo is extremely short, so short that I often can't get my finger off of the frame advance key quickly enough to prevent it from going forward a huge number of frames.
Is there anywhere in the source code I should start diving in to try to fix this issue? I'm not particularly handy with anything outside of Python or Lua but I'm willing to give it a shot. As a side note, if I had the skills I'd work on compiling BizHawk in Linux, but that might be a really hard task without some major framework changes...
So, any hints on what I might be able to do?
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As of now, endrift is confirmed to be going and there will definitely be console verification for Sonic Advance. From previous conversations endrift made it clear that being on the couch wasn't at all interesting but said I could borrow the replay device, so I'll be presenting that on my own and giving credit to endrift.
Additionally, I've put in a donation incentive to show [2601] NES Mega Man "game end glitch" by pirohiko & finalfighter in 00:32.11 immediately after Mega Man. I have effectively ~45 minutes of running time on the TAS's and ~15 minutes of extra wiggle room outside of when the TAS's are playing back, so anything that takes extra time during those 15 minutes is extremely tight. I'll have to ensure everything is as smooth as possible on transitions from game to game, and the console verification setup is at the forefront of my mind as a potential time risk. Because it is a single game, my hope is to have everything set up ahead of time, possibly by putting it on the PC table and pre-confirming video. We'll have to see how that pans out when we get there.
Meanwhile, I've started practicing what Megaman would look like by setting up FCEUX in Linux with scripts pre-configured and buttons mapped so I can demonstrate TAS techniques using both a keyboard and a controller. I've been looking for ideas for glitches I can show off in Rockman but at a bare minimum I'll be showing off item manipulation and things like frame precision at the start screen (I will be memorizing the exact frames that I need to hit start on and demonstrating how to work through finding that frame manually).
I don't yet have a working stream set up, but I have increased my bandwidth at home so I can start streaming as dwangoAC on Twitch. As soon as I get a solid patch of things to show on stream and get streaming up I'll announce it here, as I need a "crowd" to practice on.
I think that's it for now other than a quick note that I'm still working on the sidelines to get pinball machines at the event and a pin for the grand prize. I'll keep everyone up to date as best I can as things progress.
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As noted, my own expenses have been met but endrift could use your help (endrift's expenses have also been met). I will gladly provide a game to anyone who donates to endrift and I will also match endrift in donating 15% of what I've been given to Doctors Without Borders because they are an awesome organization and it's just the right thing to do.
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If anyone donates to endrift and wants a game on this games list (which now includes some fresh 3DS games and other goodies), just let me know and I'll pass it on to you. Additionally, becuase my own expenses were fully met, I will match endrift and donate 15% to Doctors Without Borders.
Good luck, endrift!
Huh, that's interesting! Is this true ACE, as in would it be possible to execute input from the controller ports, or is it just a credits glitch? I'm amused that the sound keeps repeating forever. :)
I had looked through that list a couple of weeks ago. Is there anything on there that particularly stands out to you? I'd love to find a way to live TAS one of the level-ending glitches but I don't know if I can be that precise in the short window I have. I'll keep experimenting...
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Patashu wrote:
The screen wrap-arounds you use in Elecman to get the Magnet Beam seem like an obvious one to break down, no? Then immediately after you can break down Magnet Beam related glitches, so it seems like it would flow well.
Hmmm... The only thing is that is a trick that is used by realtime runners - I don't have anything against it but I would prefer to demonstrate something that is generally only possible with frame advance. I may start with item drop manipulation as that seems like a good introduction to luck manipulation but I would love a punchline.
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I have about 5 minutes to show how to use an emulator to go through a game. In Mega Man, is there a good glitch I should demonstrate? I'll have access to Lua scripting and can display memory values on screen, and I'm looking for something that is near the beginning of a level that (preferably) has an obvious memory value use case or something along those lines. Any thoughts?
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nymx wrote:
I think its too late now.
Don't count yourself out just yet - your run is being judged by Mothrayas and while he's asked you do do a few things (which you've already made progress on) I think you'll find that he is a fair judge. I say this in the context that I've had a couple of runs judged by Mothrayas and some of them have even been rejected but he's always been a fair judge. I would say more than anything that this submission suffered from a series of miscommunications at the beginning but let some cooler heads prevail.
I have not yet completed watching the run but I'll try to provide feedback once I find time to do that. Keep your chin up, and know that we aren't a *bad* community, just... different. :)
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I've completed a playthrough of Sonic Advance and re-watched the TAS, and I've watched the Tails realtime run from SDA. I'm more or less satisfied with the initial round of research I've done on the three games and I feel like I can start "commentary routeplanning", i.e. the order I'm going to talk about TAS things and with which games, with the goal of highlighting each example I talk about using the best example available from the three games with some sense of escalating difficulty as the hour progresses.
I've more or less set up the environment I'll be using. For the time being, my plan is to run Rockman (Mega Man) inside FCEUX in Linux in full-screen and only casually mention the emulator by name, instead focusing on techniques common to all emulators (albeit perhaps with a Lua script to show off rewind and possibly memory value displaying on screen to show what other tools are available). My slant is decidedly toward helping realtime runners practice their games, so I'll be using an Xbox 360 controller with buttons mapped to frame advance, rewind, and savestate management.
I've been looking for ways to use BizHawk in Linux, just because - none of the runs are for that emulator but I've always wanted to get that working. For the time being, native compiling is still not possible and my initial experiments using Crossover (WINE) didn't succeed potentially because I put it in a Windows 7 bottle but regardless I haven't yet found a good solution. So, I cheated and ran it in VMWare Workstation, which worked well enough. I hope to revisit getting BizHawk compiled natively at some point in the future.
I'm happy to report that my trip expenses have been covered, for which I'm most thankful. I'll start streaming sometime soon, potentially this week, so everyone can see how things are progressing. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Thanks!
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TehSeven wrote:
Haha, I can just imagine playing Yoshi's Island 2 and then suddenly going to Contra or Castlevania or something.
Heh - the best possible thing I can think of would be if some unique glitch was found on SMAS but the best you'd be able to do is perhaps load level data from the wrong game, and I can't see that being particularly useful *yet* - there are definite GDQ possibilities there... :)
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I suppose you could have some kind of tool that funneled input to both programs at once - there are a number of ways I can think of to do this in Linux (which, with FCEUX is a viable option). I used to use cssh and now I use tmux to do similar things, although those aren't specifically designed for windowed applications, but regardless I'm a big fan of having one input control multiple applications. Hopefully you can find a solution one way or another.
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I know I said I wouldn't be doing console verification at SGDQ 2015, but I've asked endrift if I can take a stab at console verifying Sonic Advance from my laptop (endrift, thanks for agreeing to lend me the hardware and the game). I'm not yet certain if this will result in a console verification run at SGDQ or not, but if we can do it it would be really awesome and I bet I could ham it up quite a bit. Either way I'll be simultaneously playing back the camhack encode so people can see what's going on.
I don't own Rockman to try console verifying it and trying with Mega Man desyncs after the first level but I plan on running that one in an emulator anyway. And, of course, Ikaruga and the entire line of disc-based consoles is pretty much never going to be console verifiable, but there are still plenty of other things we can potentially target in the future.
