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Tell me where the poll gives the "uses x glitch" option.
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Radiant wrote:
It strikes me that most people, even fans of the game, may not know what a "box glitch" really is. So it may be a good idea to instead name the effect instead, e.g. "out of bounds". That would be clearer.
Oh man...
feos wrote:
- skips to ending: "game end glitch"
- warps throughout the game, or right to near the end: "warp glitch"
- corrupts save data: "SRAM glitch"
- can't be abstracted: invent a new name with the help of the forums. Sometimes it already exists.
If the glitch is so weird and unused elsewhere that it can't be abstracted, it would NEED a name. Explaining it must be done in the movie description (and is done so in all such cases that I didn't miss).
Radiant wrote:
Aside from that, we have an interesting situation now over at Battletoads. Specifically, the "warps, 2 players" run is obsoleted by "warpless, 2 players", whereas the "warps, 1 player" run is obsoleted by "warps, 2 players". If I understand the system correctly, there should be five distinct branches here, i.e. "warp 1p", "warp 2p", "warpless 1p", "warpless 2p" and EGG; so perhaps some chains should be switched here.
Back then (look at the dates) no one cared about that. I'm not going to "fix" the mistakes that weren't mistakes. I only know that mine and MESHUGGAH's Battletoads obsoleted 1p warped because it was supposed to be the fastest branch.
Radiant wrote:
As Nach wrote, "2) All significant differentiators should be tagged where applicable. Even if this means every run for a game now has several tags.". To me, that suggests that all of the Super Mario World runs should be tagged as "warps" or "no warps", for example, or that this run would be "princess only, warps".
It tells to label all runs that can be labeled. As in, basing on the in-game options used that have counterparts, or on player-invented conditions. If there is a counterpart for "princess only, warps" - "princess only, warpless", they will both have these labels. If Battletoads "game end glitch" existed for both 1 player and 2 players, they you be "GEG, 1 player" and "GEG, 2 players". Same about Super C.
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Radiant wrote:
2. The run uses the self-imposed conditions not suggested by the game as options (pacifist, walkathon, arbitrary code execution, playaround, 100%). Not using is implied, since otherwise the labels will blow.
I agree with most of that, but I don't think that arbitrary code execution is a self-imposed condition. Rather, the opposite (no ACE) is a speed/entertainment tradeoff, so that would be a self-imposed condition.
If a "speed-entertainment trade off" is used in all branches but one, why you and some other people so eager to see "no arbitrary code execution" in freaking all the other branches? And why do you love to blow the labels?
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "warps, no arbitrary code execution" in 09:57.82 by bahamete, Kaizoman666, Mister & PangaeaPanga.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "game end glitch" in 01:39.74 by Masterjun.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "small only, no arbitrary code execution" in 1:18:23.22 by PangaeaPanga.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) "96 exits, no arbitrary code execution" in 1:14:37.63 by bahamete, Kaizoman666 & Masterjun.
SNES Super Mario World (USA) in 02:25.19 by Masterjun. (this one uses ACE. and it's not a speedrun. it doesn't even beat the game. but looks like any%)
Really? Like that????
On the matter: does the game suggest you to either pick "arbitrary code" or not, as a normal player? If it doesn't, it's your own, self-imposed condition - to either pick it or not. I'm not telling using it is self-imposed, or avoiding it is self-imposed. I say the option itself is so.
Then, it becomes ONLY a matter of clean branches: we wither call out the use of that technique (that's so exceptional it does need a label, to show the viewer what it does) or we call out that it's voided (if it's so common the labels will become cleaner without it).
feos wrote:
1. The run uses what the game suggests as different gameplay options (amount of characters, use of warps, different characters or endings). Neither is implied, since either can appear faster.
Radiant wrote:
Sounds good, I agree. I suppose that "best ending" or "julius mode" would also fall under this.
Uh...
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Nach wrote:
feos, very nice job on your updates.
Regarding "game end glitch", I'm wondering if perhaps we should turn these massive glitches into a glitch tag with a sub tag, meaning we could have:
glitch - game end
glitch - x-ray
glitch - pipe
glitch - coin case
etc...
I believe it must be like that:
If the run uses the game-breaking glitch (that breaks the game execution and also cuts down the length several times), it must be labeled as "X glitch". X is figured out like that:
- skips to ending: "game end glitch"
- warps throughout the game, or right to near the end: "warp glitch"
- corrupts save data: "SRAM glitch"
- can't be abstracted: invent a new name with the help of the forums. Sometimes it already exists.
Nach wrote:
feos, I very much like what you're saying.
Also, the "movie classes" on the site should perhaps in some way tie into the call outs.
Movie classes serve for litstings, so should do branches.
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I kept thinking it all over, and here's the simplest I can put it:
1. The run uses what the game suggests as different gameplay options (amount of characters, use of warps, different characters or endings). Neither is implied, since either can appear faster.
Call out when:
2. The run uses the self-imposed conditions not suggested by the game as options (pacifist, walkathon, arbitrary code execution, playaround, 100%). Not using is implied, since otherwise the labels will blow.
Call out when:
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(tl dr) I installed the latest MPC and all encodes work without tweaks :)
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The current icon rocks.
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Warp wrote:
Warp wrote:
I envision this causing obsoletion problems (which is one of the reasons why I think that the branch name should not fix any of the techniques used.) If a new run is submitted that uses a different set of the techniques than the old one used, should the branch name be changed or a new branch created?
Has this been properly answered?
What was said by Nach was examples and possibilities. They can be used once we feel they work. And if without them it still works, those specifics aren't needed.
About obsoltions. The label actually needs to be common enough to allow obsoletions by using different techniques without changing the branch. Like, Super Mario World "warps". It was done with 11 exits, but can appear faster with 12 or 1, without game-breaking glitches (arbitrary code and whatnot). So "warps" includes all possible techniques within that branch. As does "game end glitch". It doesn't matter how it skips to ending, it matters how fast.
But still, there's a possibility that one branch obsoletes another different one, if people feel their content overlaps enough. It would be cross-branch obsoletions, as happened to Cross Fire "pacifist" (absoleted by any%).
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Can I get my name changed to Warp654908376827 please?
Kidding...
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CoolKirby wrote:
I also support the idea of movie flags and think that icon is perfect. That would go up next to the Vault/Moon/Star logo for each movie, right?
Only for branches that are really known to be fastest possible. Like Megaman X2 100%. It's faster than any lower amount of items. But things like Speedy Gonzales 100% would not get the flag, since there's a faster branch. Or if you asked about placing, then it will be right where all the other flags are.
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Using the Contra 3 example:
SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "pacifist" - differs from any other (existing and possible) branch by being pacifist.
SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "game end glitch" - differs from them by skipping to end.
But how to call SNES Contra 3: The Alien Wars (USA) "no warp glitch", since it's just a regular completion, neither glitchy nor pacifist? If there is a 1-player run some day, it would be clear: call them 1 player and 2 players. But what to do now? Maybe 1 player never works out. Maybe REALLY leave it blank, and all the similar ones?
Even Super Metroid runs
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch" and
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch, ingame time"
ask for some fix. But they are also "no game end glitch" and "no GT code" as well as "no X-Ray glitch", which would make it sound imbecile altogether.
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "no X-Ray glitch, no game end glitch, no GT code, ingame time" in 39:15.3 by Saturn.
Hahahahahahaha!
While making them
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) in 38:41.52 by Taco & Kriole
SNES Super Metroid (JPN/USA) "ingame time" in 39:15.3 by Saturn
sounds the most mature and sane. Because really, they do nothing exceptional from all the other branches. They just beat it.
And for speed record geeks, we would flag the "GT code, game end glitch" branch, since GT code was suddenly considered legit.
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Inzult wrote:
I can only really speak to Zelda 2, the only game on that list I'm familiar enough with to understand what exactly is going on.
The way it is now, with the short run being unnamed and the long run being tagged as something that doesn't use every technique known is fine and makes a lot of sense in this case, I think.
I personally preferred "glitched" and unnamed because it was vague enough that we could use common sense to decide what to include in which run without having to explicitly define everything. Viewers can look at these two runs and see that, yeah okay, even though both of these use an any% route, one's obviously not as close to what zelda 2 usually looks like as the other.
If you want vague names for both and rely on the movie description to explain what's happening "glitched" and "no oob" or something along those lines is fine.
If you want more specific names, "uses l+r acceleration, wrong warps" and "no l+r acceleration or wrong warps" is good. I've come to prefer wrong warps to unintended exits, even though neither name perfectly describes what's going on I think WW is a more familiar kind of name for people.
"No l+r, no healer glitch, no fairy glitch, no scroll lock" is technically exactly what's intentionally left out of the longer run, but that's getting a bit wordy.
Additionally, unnamed and "avoids game-breaking glitches" with the movie description explaining what those are is sufficient as well.
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Warp wrote:
So the consensus is that the branch name should define the techniques/methods/glitches/routes used to complete the game (which is basically the opposite of what I suggested)?
I envision this causing obsoletion problems (which is one of the reasons why I think that the branch name should not fix any of the techniques used.) If a new run is submitted that uses a different set of the techniques than the old one used, should the branch name be changed or a new branch created?
This could be avoided if the branches, at least the "major" ones, are named in a more abstract manner, ie. in a manner that does not fix how the game was completed.
If you want to get rid of the "nameless branch" idea because the concept of a "default" TAS for a game is too controversial, that's not really the major problem IMO. I was just thinking that it would be nice if there were some kind of "special mark" for the "official speed record" branch, which could aid people in finding it. "This game can be completed in 23:15 using tool-assistance." If there are 10 branches, one of them ought to be the official speed record. It would be useful to mark is as such.
I think it's not possible to get rid of the fastest branch (reasons in the previous post). As for "techniques/methods/glitches/routes", it doesn't need to be as specific as Nach said. Instead check out what I was trying to do.
Warp wrote:
I was just thinking that it would be nice if there were some kind of "special mark" for the "official speed record" branch, which could aid people in finding it. "This game can be completed in 23:15 using tool-assistance." If there are 10 branches, one of them ought to be the official speed record. It would be useful to mark is as such.
That's what I suggest here and on IRC. At least a few more people agreed with the movie flag idea.
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
SM with X-ray glitch would be "X-Ray" or "X-Ray glitch"? X-ray can be used without glitching.
According to rule 1, X-Ray is most certainly not descriptive enough as you pointed out. The latter may also not be if there's more than one kind of X-ray glitch. So perhaps it should be something along the lines of X-ray bound breaking
As long as X-Ray glitch is complicated in its results, and quite similar to Crash Bandicoot 2's box glitch in that, and neither skips to ending, their meaning can be put into movie description, and the label be "X-Ray glitch" and "box glitch", telling it's still a game-breaking glitch by its wording.
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Agreed with only 2 kinds of options for ACE.
Possible names for not completing the game:
- demonstration
- payload
- playaround
For completing the game, it's either "game end" or "some other skip".
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amaurea wrote:
(But I'm confused about "Arbitrary Code - Level ending". Why would you just end the level when you have the power to do anything you want?)
Battletoads apply both uses of memory corruption: skipping to game and, and skipping to the next level once. Both are Moons and different enough. Neither is arbitrary code though.
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What if "Game ending" doesn't use "Arbitrary code"? Make it just "game ending"? Or maybe "game end glitch" or something?
SM with X-ray glitch would be "X-Ray" or "X-Ray glitch"? X-ray can be used without glitching.
How about using a movie flag to mark what was previously marked by dropping the label, a "fastest category" flag?
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Warp wrote:
What I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with tiers. I don't even understand why you think it does.
Half of the voters apply the old approach, that we have put on Judge Guidelines about branching. Fastest completion is so obviously the default and the main goal of TASes that it needs no label. Right?
That approach leads to contradiction between the 2 groups of people, because another half of them thinks this goal is not so obvious and not main. They feel main goal is to beat the game without game-breaking glitches, and want to have this branch blank.
As Radiant said, none of the options can be now applied the hard way, since either of them disappoints half of the people.
Then, either none of these 2 branches should have labels (which is hilarious but wrong), or both. So my suggestion is basing all the taxonomy not on conclusion that "fastest by all means is default and obvious" (that half the crowd disagrees with), but on "each branch must be named some special way, unless there's nothing special". I already defined what the special way means, and when there's nothing special. Because really, what is special about that run:
[1049] NES Batman by Aglar in 09:21.93
And what if there appears a "game end glitch" branch for this game? Would they become "game end glitch" and "no game end glitch"? The answer is, they might, but until there are even more branches. Then one would need to avoid what's common and label what's unique. As I always say, if 4 branches avoid X and 1 uses it, we call the one that uses it "uses X" instead of calling the rest 4 "avoids X".
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Radiant wrote:
The solution is very simple: use a more precise term.
For example: some people believe that any movie that uses sequence breaking is "glitched". Other people don't. The straightforward solution is to use the more precise term instead: if a movie is sequence breaking, label it "sequence breaking"; and the issue is resolved.
The clear outcome of this poll is that we shouldn't use the terms "glitched" or "any%" in movie names, because there is disagreement over what they mean. That's ok, we can use more precise terms where they apply. For example, "sequence breaking" or "memory corruption" or indeed "End Game Glitch".
TAS'ing is all about precision, so we shouldn't be afraid to use precise terms to label a movie, when there's disagreement over a broad and general term.
I didn't expect I would see a post ITT that I would second that much.
Do you think that we must put the question "what glitch does it use that needs to be in the branch?" to all runs that 1) clearly need it, and 2) are up to now ambiguous? I think it must be similar to what was done to obsoletion chains: a movie is put for discussion, then when there's some agreement, it's applied.
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Radiant wrote:
Right. Because the term "glitched" was never consistently applied, and people have widely different definitions of what they mean by it. You can see that in this thread, there's at least five distinct definitions here that contradict each other, and all of them are subjective. It simply leads to endless debate, which isn't helpful.
That's why we need something objective. An End Game Glitch is a glitch that lets you end the game directly. Very simple, very straightforward. This is an End Game Glitch. This is clearly not (but you could argue for hours about whether the trick at 3:10 makes it "glitched" or not). So an End Game Glitch is actually a distinction that we can base different branches on.
Yes, and what to do with things like this:
[1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12
You can try to show me people that don't understand the difference the X-Ray glitch introduces from the fastest run that avoids it (and arbitrary code), but it doesn't mean they are majority.
Yes, the problem is runs where one no longer can see the border line between "completely broken", "largely broken" and "slightly broken". But if they are in Moons, we would still need some names to tell what's different about them. It would require picking up the list of such runs where it is already ambiguous and working out the solution. Instead of telling it can't be figured out.
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
What do you think of that definition?
It's a circular definition, and that doesn't help. Everything relies on whether the game is broken enough or whether the so-called standard route is deviated from enough because every TAS breaks and deviates to some extent. This is the exact same issue we had months ago.
You should stick with End Game Glitch; at least that is objective and clear.
How does definition of game breaking glitch contradicts the use of "Game End Glitch" to label a certain type of it? Not all runs that used to be called "glitched" use game end glitch. Right? Then how do you determine the label "X glitch" is needed at all? If my suggestion of how to determine it (surely it's case-by-case, but it's abstracted to only 2 common features that are easy to check) has weak points, quote them. Or maybe you think that the whole thing (opinion of half the people on the site) is a mess and there's no freaking way one could understand what's a game-breaking glitch?
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Warp wrote:
As I said, in my opinion it shouldn't be the role of the branch name to describe the details of the run. The "default" branch has one goal, and one goal only: Complete the game as fast as possible, using any means possible. How it achieves that is completely inconsequential (with respect to the branch name.) If this goal is achieved by using some specific techniques, those can be expressed with the tags and in the description of the run.
You (for some reason) keep referring to the priority system that doesn't work anymore. I think I described why in several posts. As in, Moons don't have any default goals except for "to entertain". Nor do they have default condition sets. Whatever looks good meets the goal. So one can't rule Moons with the Vault approach without victims.
Scepheo wrote:
I honestly think you're just trying to discuss something that nobody else cares about. The main discussion is pretty much about the 2 options Radiant named. You're the only one talking about labels/branchs/flags ("But do you have a flag?") for all the other restrictions.
You honestly think that after looking at the poll results someone is going to apply the either option the hard way? What I am the only one to do here is to find a solution that solves the MAIN problem: people's opinions exactly halved on the matter raised by the poll. It can be solved by:
- applying both at once now (impossible since they contradict each other)
- applying neither (satisfies no one)
- applying both partially
People in this thread, since they weren't given any clear option besides those 2, feel that if they just state what they think, it's all they need to do. You see the result. I'm trying to reconcile the contradicting camps and seem to be the only one who cares of the contradiction (or sees it).
On the other note, I'm trying to come up with some definition for a game breaking glitch. It seems to need 2 traits:
- break the gameplay, engine, code execution, overcome intended logics
- cut down the length dramatically, compared to the fastest run that avoids that glitch
Only if we require these 2 at once it is going to work. The first one draws the line between (ab)using gameplay, engine, intended logics and breaking them, to make the game something other. The second one is important: since it's about making the new branch, it would need to entertain, and to be different enough from what's already done (otherwise it simply obsoletes). Like, when the current MM1 was submitted, it was a significant improvement (and the gameplay was corrupted), but the time cut wasn't dramatically huge (the gameplay was not broken). What's dramatically huge? Well, twice shorter, and more. Actually, it would be seen when we are at judging it.
What do you think of that definition?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I think screen shaking is the only thing ng_deblink doesn't handle at all.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Okay, I see that it works well as examples. If I were in the camp of "glitched & any%", I would pick the second options (which is quite intuitive). But you see, people have already decided, and their opinions on your examples can be easily assumed. You still give only 2 options after all.
But my idea is that, since SMW allows freaking tons of in-game options of how to beat the game, it will become:
"executes arbitrary code", "end game glitch", "96 exits", "11 exits", and "small only".
No blank branch since this game allows variety. No any% branch, since it doesn't track your completion %. As for the fastest one indication, I love the movie flag solution. So branches would do their job to categorize, and flags would do their to highlight.
And yes, specific conditions that are known only to speedrunners (TAS and RTA) must be put into descriptions, not labels.
Scepheo wrote:
feos wrote:
As for, where we use the label any% then, I have no idea. Just because it doesn't tell anyone anything other than "it's the fastest branch". Man, it doesn't fulfill its own purpose as a branch name: it neither tells by what conditions the goal was achieved, nor does it show how does that branch differ from others.
But it does show/tell those things. It tells you that the only conditions that apply to the movie are the site rules (no cheats), and it tells you that it differs from the others by not having any restrictions. Any% says "this is the fastest you can complete the game without restrictions".
Don't I say "in-game options" enough? There are hundreds of them, each game can have any amount of them. These options are:
- amount of simultaneously used players
- different characters
- different endings
- warps
- exit amounts
and there are more.
The person who knows the game instantly knows what to expect from the movie if it's properly labeled. If some of them aren't, it becomes a black box. Don't you see how all kinds of different in-game options are substituted with only 1 (it's fastest) and that one is misleading? Or maybe you're able to pick all our unnamed branches on the side and without reading the description tell which built-in options were used to complete the game as fast as possible? You still didn't provide good use from knowing which branch is the fastest, and why it can never ever be done by using a movie flag.
EDIT:
Yeah, I forgot. Restrictions! See my previous post on why that, as a Vault approach, fails to handle the Moons. Because Moons don't deal with restrictions. They deal with viewer's joy. And viewer needs good taxonomy to get more joy and not have it spoiled with annoyance.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
