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Not beating (or matching) all know records was the reason. If someone makes his won run and matches the time per room, it will be accepted.
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adelikat wrote:
Feos, you seem flat out wrong about something, or I am misunderstanding your posts. Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
The vault absolutely prefers the faster movie, not a (more ambiguous) movie that fails to do a time saving glitch.
For now it's your own opinion. I have no problems with calling "glitched" runs "any%" and the current "any%" ones that have the faster glitched versions something else, as long as the low-glitch versions are preserved if their entertainment value deserves separate publication. But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
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Suggestion taken. SoR2 now has more votes, but the ones from SoR3 are higher. Any thoughts which one deserves it more?
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Radiant wrote:
That's an interesting distinction; it does make sense but it would require some cleaning up, because as near as I can tell the category tag "heavy glitch abuse" and the label "glitched" in a run's title are used interchangeably, and for both of these.
As I said, no one really cares. It is mostly decided case by case.
Radiant wrote:
In the meantime, this Cheetahmen run clearly falls in the former category; it doesn't corrupt memory the way these other movies (or the famous Pokemon Pi Dance) do.
It does skip more than half of the game at once. It in no way near the any% concept either. The game itself is just fucked up, so you don't even need to corrupt memory to break it to death and abuse.
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Radiant wrote:
feos wrote:
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
There are several "glitched" runs in the vault, such as Chrono Trigger, Legendary Stafy, Earthbound Zero, and Wizardry III; all of these bypass most or all of the game, e.g. the last one does so by glitching the final quest item into a shop, then simply buying it. The Chrono Trigger run was also ruled to obsolete this non-glitched run, since both are "any%" and therefore the same branch.
Thanks. Actually, these runs being in vault is an oversight, since the Wiki: Vault page states that only 2 basic goals can be accepted to vault: any% and 100%. Recently there was an addition for runs that beat independent levelsets available from the beginning (such as chapters in DOS games). So these runs need to be moved to Moons, which was done to most of the auto-vaulted runs that appeared to have unvaultable goals.
Radiant wrote:
I'm not sure why "glitched" would be considered a separate goal. I would consider goals to be things like "any%", "100%", "pacifist", or "playaround", and each of these could be glitched or non-glitched. In addition to the Chrono Trigger run, it is generally the case that a run with the "heavy glitch abuse" tag will obsolete a run without the tag, instead of forming a separate branch; examples include Shining Soul and Spongebob.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons).
For what it's worth, it is likely that some or most of the negative feedback is either due to misunderstandings earlier in this thread, or predates Adelikat's post of evidence. After all, people are likely to vote when they first post in a thread, and cannot change it later.
People are asked whether or not they were entertained by the content of the run. Cheetahmen is just not the typeof the gameto enjoy. And when judging a movie on the matter of acceptability, when it appears to have an unvaultable branch, we can't "imagine" when the audience could think, or if it was honest or not. We need to rely on votes and forum posts. I don't see too much enjoyment in forum feedback about this movie either. Finally, if No and Yes votes tie, it means it's not a Moons content.
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I think it was proven that this run is valid in all terms, and must be judges as a real run. But it has a goal most people don't notice. It freaking skips half of the game!
Can someone list the runs that skip half of the game at once and are still any%? I only can remember any%'s that skip some levels from the middle to the next level start. And glitched runs either skip from the middle of the game to its end, or break the gameplay hard enough to deserve a glitched category.
So if this movie is glitched, it can't be vaulted (nor the feedback it got now is enough for Moons). And if it is not, it breaks its own goal in my eyes, since it skips half of the game.
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It most likely means "famous compared to ourselves" :D
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Wait, is it supposed to be the any% category? Or glitched (which it seems to be due to relying on messing with memory)?
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I started thinking of claiming this movie in order to accept it. The reasoning seems interesting, but pretty clear to me. Anyone still thinks it must be rejected?
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AnS wrote:
feos wrote:
Yeah, fine tuning for FPS, doesn't sound too hard when there are already plenty of hardcoded levels.
OK, you do it.
Will look into it in a few days.
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Yeah, fine tuning for FPS, doesn't sound too hard when there are already plenty of hardcoded levels.
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Alright, if it can not be achieved the input way alone (gamepad, reset, power), but it was proven to happen in reality, it is then indeed truly random. So even if we want, we couldn't create a progression of power cycles that would for sure reproduce, say, via nesbot.
There is a bit of a misconception here. What is a blank state? I guess you mean where all relevant registers are 0, which is actually an unlikely event.
Also, no NES TAS starts from a "blank" state. It starts with WRAM set at 0000FFFF. Why is this "blank"?
I mean it starts from what values are on pure power on. When nothing at all is preset, and the initial state is this way equal to that of all the other movies. Blank as in not touched.
And this game, through its complete brokenness, is an exception. You just can NOT start it from the state similar to other movies :) Because it screws up the values by itself.
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Since reset doesn't seem to do the trick properly, and power on does it after a few reties, the only solution that will perfectly fit into "identical fair conditions for all games" concept, is to figure out how exactly power on affects the needed register state, and when it affects it. Like, does it depend on the stage you switch the power at? How much time in is needed? How many times one needs to do it to get the needed state the soonest?
Because yes, if we use some preset values to even start the game, it is a savestate of some kind. At least within the current meaning of things we handle here. But it can not be treated as movies starting from "blank" state, nor can it be treated as a real savestate/SRAM movie.
Even if the game itself is so fucked up it could start from level 5 at the very first launch after it was produced, we would need to put it into the aforementioned laboratory conditions before TASing ("blank" initial state) to make it stand near the existing movies.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
AnS you sound ridiculous to me
Wise argument. Nothing to disprove.
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Radiant wrote:
Now I fully admit I'm not one of the rules-makers on this site, but it strikes me that unilaterally adding a new "guideline" to a wiki page and then using it in this thread the very next day is not a proper method. Is there any agreement to your four points? Because they strike me as contradictory to the rest of the page, as well as unworkable. In particular, your second point is redundant to the fourth, and "requesting star tier" is just not something people do in threads like these. Your third point of asking 100 votes is completely impractical for anything that's not an SNES or Genesis platform game. So by your new guideline, no new games can be starred ever.
So it strikes me that this Jetpack run does meet the normal (older, agreed-upon) criteria for star tier, so I think the star here is fitting, and those four new points that were added to the star page yesterday should be stricken.
It should not strike you, because while guidelines show what kind of movie is generally star worthy, one can't star all movies that satisfy the criteria.
I always refer to the 10% quota made by adelikat. I once started to star all runs that satisfied the criteria in my eyes. It ended with adelikat telling me to destar the ones with the lowest entertainment rating to fit in the quota. I spent some hard hours figuring out what would then really mean a movie must be starred. And there you go, it must be starred if:
- It is an obsoletion of an already starred movie.
- There is huge audience support of starring it.
- If the votes are around 100, it will be considered for starring. But there are exceptions. Most sonic runs get that much votes. But we can't star all of them, only the ones that are on different platforms or represent basically different type of star worthy content.
- If there are just some requests to star a movie, it will be considered for starring. But if it gets low ratings after publication, it will not be starred, because support needs to be consistent between submission voters and publication raters to really rely on.
The problem always seems to be with borderline cases. And with such, one really needs something more than personal opinion of a starman/admin to really star a movie.
Your third point of asking 100 votes is completely impractical for anything that's not an SNES or Genesis platform game. So by your new guideline, no new games can be starred ever.
No wonder you feel stroke. You misinterpret the sense of the points. This one does not say "if there is no 100 votes it will not be starred". It says, 100 votes is the easiest way to prove a movie must be considered for starring.
"requesting star tier" is just not something people do in threads like these.
it strikes me that unilaterally adding a new "guideline" to a wiki page and then using it in this thread the very next day is not a proper method.
There is also IRC where important discussions about orders occur between staff and users. And there are some orders that are still not documented on wiki. It doesn't mean those are invalid, or they only become valid in some time after they are documented. It is about practices and how staff does them.
And yeah, it is in no way "unilateral" if it has adelikat's approval (who is too shy to post about it in threads like this).
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Having such a proof I now support this submission's acceptance.
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Your refuse to discuss what starman worked out in collaboration with the audience. Do whatever you like. I'm tuning out of this movie's fate.
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Are you deliberately ignoring the point about the order a new movie is currently starred by? There are things that help the starman know it needs a star. Having ~100 votes was mentioned by adelikat in IRC many times, and it does work. Needing SOME requests from users to star it also is the necessary reason to star something.
And the guidelines you're now quotting are a year old, they were written before tier system was introduced. Being guidelines means they are no rules, you don't star all movies that meet the criteria. Because ther is the 10% quota, and some feedback threshold (comments/votes/ratings).
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Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
Did I try to base my objection on the starman guidelines that existed earlier?
You linked to the page for it, so it certainly seems that way.
You seem to have missed the #Submissions part, linking to what I have added.
Nach wrote:
feos wrote:
I based it on the order the new movies are starred now. If you think the order is untrue, discuss it.
I have no idea what this means.
Once new movie is submitted/published, there are several ways to figure out whether it should be starred or not.
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Did I try to base my objection on the starman guidelines that existed earlier? I based it on the order the new movies are starred now. If you think the order is untrue, discuss it. I was (and am) acting star-wise based on the old guidelines + some vocal tips from adelikat + what I wrote there an hour ago.
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Voted No, extremely repetitive.
EDIT:
I documented how the starring process works for submissions currently.
http://tasvideos.org/StarmanGuidelines.html#Submissions
I don't see any of those checked for this submission. Which means it was accepted for stars by personal taste alone.
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Signing the petition to see Sonny_Jim again!
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I support doing the thing from resetting at a needed subframe point.
- First of all, this feature itself gives amazing advantages to heavily glitched TASes. Everyone benefits.
- Second, it doesn't affect the rules/policies. All runs are still judged in the same conditions.
- Third, it doesn't selfishly benefit from an emulator feature that only applies directly to one game.
Even though technically, the same can possibly be done by mere power on (and be the fastest), the only way consistent with the current set of things is doing it through soft reset.
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Same...
Here is where it happens, you seem to miss the door:
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Same, even with default config...
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
