If you don't nip this kind of problem in the bud, it begins to get worse. Then, you've bought yourself a one way ticket to the site's slow death.
Things have been going in a bad direction for a while now, and this nonsense makes it actually possible for the site to go down the shitter permanently. Better to deal with the problem now and make an example out of the person who caused it then wait until later when it's too late. It'll cause hell, but in the end the site will be better for it.
I think people should be given a second chance before killing them.
Normally, I would agree. However, this has happened in the past. There is a precedent. Still, if it bugs people that much, I guess a temp demotion would be enough.
I came on here to ask why this run was published, but I see that question was already asked a few times. Seriously though, what happened?
I thought it was common knowledge that the blue shell is slower than running normally, and I almost felt embarrassed for the TASer when he kept saving at every opportunity. There were also plenty of places in this run that seemed fairly unoptimized. I didn't know about the flag pole trick until I read this thread.
I honestly feel like I could borrow my friend's DS (I sold mine) and beat the game faster than this run. Nothing in this run is technically difficult to pull off in real-time, and just ditching the blue shell earlier and not saving would save a good 5-10 seconds.
I would like to point out again, before receiving a bunch of insults toward the list, that it is not any kind of official document, nor a collection of testaments to blindly obey. The fact that something goes against it is not yet grounds for taking any action.
I do however agree that this is a dubious reason for publishing a TAS, hence why I said earlier, "I hope you guys know what you're doing".
Warp wrote:
The only thing I'm hoping for is a less elitist attitude from the judges/admins, which is fairer towards "regular" people who contribute and who have no special privileges. Listening to people rather than considering them morons goes a long way in making the TASing community more enjoyable for everybody.
Seriously, would it really had been such a huge burden for adelikat to remake his run with the flaws fixed? Was it really that important to rush the publication no matter what?
This I very much agree with.
I understand and appreciate adelikat's enthusiasm in bringing DS here, but the first run of a platform could have been better. I mean, we could all wait a few more days (which I believe is the time it would take to research and fix the most glaring errors) and no-one would even know nor complain.
Personally, I don't think any serious action should be taken against adelikat in this case since he didn't have any ill intent, but what people say about setting a morally degrading precedent is kind of right.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
The only thing I'm hoping for is a less elitist attitude from the judges/admins, which is fairer towards "regular" people who contribute and who have no special privileges.
I don't really see this problem, I'm sure adelikat would have published this even if it hadn't been his own movie.
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IST, if you actually recognized the vast amount of personal time, energy, and support that adelikat has contributed to this site, then you would realize how quickly much of the progress on this site would come to a screeching halt if he were to leave. With Bisqwit phasing out his involvement, adelikat has been the only one to show the initiative to take over the less glamorous tasks of the site. Calling for a ban is both ridiculous and ignorant.
Seriously, would it really had been such a huge burden for adelikat to remake his run with the flaws fixed? Was it really that important to rush the publication no matter what?
Seriously, i didnt even watched/noted this run, and basicly anyway it doesnt matter
Alltought, im happy adelikat fast released/accepted (or whoever) this
I prefer they did in 3 days than in 2 weeks, i was able to start right away POR tasing, rather than in 2 weeks (assuming would take 2 weeks to fix his run)
I started POR run also, because, if theres a submition, that more likely will end up accepted, this mean i have chances to submit too, if it was rejected, in the middle of me doing POR run, i would have troubled and who know, could have resign then, this didnt happened, im rassured because i know if im doing good work it will be ok, and i will have no unwanted troubles (like it was for resident evil 3 hacks for exemple, preventing submit and now my run feeling all dusty)
Lets say at least im more rassured by accepted than rejected, especially with the "kind" of crisis generated by a late svn access... (witch i dont care at all, im just a player...)
Now of course, that just my oppinion
I started POR run also, because, if theres a submition, that more likely will end up accepted, this mean i have chances to submit too, if it was rejected, in the middle of me doing POR run, i would have troubled and who know, could have resign then, this didnt happened, im rassured because i know if im doing good work it will be ok, and i will have no unwanted troubles (like it was for resident evil 3 hacks for exemple, preventing submit and now my run feeling all dusty)
I'm honestly baffled by this. I just don't understand what you are talking about.
You are encouraged to make your own TAS because adelikat rushed is own flawed run to publication? I don't even understand how that should be interpreted.
Does that mean that you will also make a flawed run and demand it to be published on the grounds that the flawed NSMB submission was also published?
It sounds to me that what you are trying to say is that "now that I know that the emulator works and can be used to create TASes, I can make my own". However, I can't understand how that's in any way related to publishing a submission with flaws in it, bypassing public opinion. I can't see how the status of the emulator is in any way connected to the publication of this run.
What you write sounds like you were saying that if this submission had been rejected, then it either means that future DS submissions will also be rejected (what utter nonsense), or that the emulator is flawed (what's the connection???)
Yes, I'm utterly confused by your post.
The only thing I'm hoping for is a less elitist attitude from the judges/admins, which is fairer towards "regular" people who contribute and who have no special privileges.
I don't really see this problem, I'm sure adelikat would have published this even if it hadn't been his own movie.
Would have published a sub-par run with known flaws and sloppy play (which have been pointed out well before the publication) for the sole reason that this is the first DS TAS, before the voting and the discussion reaches a consensus and completely disregarding public opinion?
That actually doesn't make it much better.
The questions I have asked many times are still unanswered: Why was it imperative for this to be rushed into publication? Why couldn't it have been remade with the flaws fixed?
Is that so hard to answer?
bullshit bisqwit, I find it cool that an unoptimized run was accepted and dont mind a change of policies towards that, but if that's only gonna be for your friends then... (you trying to rationalize why this can be given preferential treatment but others can't due to not being first anymore)
why dont you accept this while you are at it, theres no other supply for it either: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7964
I vote yes.
I mean come on, I had no idea this was possible in the first place.
It's better than the real-time speedrun, and it can always be improved later.
Also, one thing I wanted to check up upon. I believe crouching is a faster way to fall from platforms. What I mean is take a moment like 4:32 in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWzmcIBaNFA&feature=related
I believe frames could be saved in instances like this where you slide off by crouching. Unless of course I'm wrong and it doesn't actually help your fall speed...
It sounds to me that what you are trying to say is that "now that I know that the emulator works and can be used to create TASes, I can make my own". However, I can't understand how that's in any way related to publishing a submission with flaws in it, bypassing public opinion. I can't see how the status of the emulator is in any way connected to the publication of this run.
Because of arrogance and badwhilling all over the place (that basicly what you and gia are showing now), yes, i kinda need to be rassured that a DS "can" make it all the way trough the crowd of guys whinning like this
I never saw a movie published with a non working emulator (i tought it was not possible at least), ok theres concept demo from dos games, who cares, im just player so im looking to make tas, not looking to get complains about technical matter or whatever
Unless you can convince me a player role is just to produce more gruefood, yeah, i got my point, its very related to how a submition can get published
I say thumbs up if whe got it 2 weeks sooner, bottom line
Because of arrogance and badwhilling all over the place (that basicly what you and gia are showing now), yes, i kinda need to be rassured that a DS "can" make it all the way trough the crowd of guys whinning like this
Your explanation makes even less sense than your previous post.
You make it sound like people had objected to the publication because it's a DS game. That's actually exactly what you are saying.
Exactly how does that argument make any kind of sense? Nobody has objected to the publication because it was a DS game. Nobody has objected because of the emulator used (I can't even understand why you are bringing up the emulator to the discussion, because as far as I can see nobody has even mentioned it in the whole thread).
I also find it rather baffling that someone publishing HIS OWN RUN with complete disregard of public opinion is not arrogance, but people objecting to this elitism is.
I never saw a movie published with a non working emulator (i tought it was not possible at least), ok theres concept demo from dos games, who cares, im just player so im looking to make tas, not looking to get complains about technical matter or whatever
Can you explain to me exactly how would rejecting this submission indicate that the emulator is not working?
As I said, I can't even understand why you are even bringing the emulator to the discussion. What does it have to do with anything? I'm just completely puzzled here. I can't understand you.
The only thing I'm hoping for is a less elitist attitude from the judges/admins, which is fairer towards "regular" people who contribute and who have no special privileges.
I don't really see this problem, I'm sure adelikat would have published this even if it hadn't been his own movie.
Would have published a sub-par run with known flaws and sloppy play (which have been pointed out well before the publication) for the sole reason that this is the first DS TAS, before the voting and the discussion reaches a consensus and completely disregarding public opinion?
That actually doesn't make it much better.
The questions I have asked many times are still unanswered: Why was it imperative for this to be rushed into publication? Why couldn't it have been remade with the flaws fixed?
Is that so hard to answer?
I don't think that question will be answered. Better to ignore it than try to work your way around it.
As for my earlier statement, i've rethought it a bit, make it a temporary suspension of his powers.
Still, given his increased involvement with the site itself, how can you say this is kosher, mmbossman? This was clearly posted only because adelikat felt like his run should be posted. He's going to be assuming more and more power over in the near future. The fact that he's more than willing to publish a sub-optimal run because it's his shows that his judgment is at best highly flawed.
I don't really see this problem, I'm sure adelikat would have published this even if it hadn't been his own movie.
Indeed I would have.
Can you explain to me why you would have published this NSMB movie even if it hadn't been yours, but you rejected the Madou Monogatari movie, even though that had significantly more yes votes and more positive feedback?
Is this going to be the general policy under your rule as site administrator: You overrule popular opinion at your own whim? If you don't like a movie, it gets rejected regardless of popular opinion, and if you want something published, you publish it regardless of public opinion?
What do we need the voting system for, if you are going to ignore it anyways?
This whole voting system is becoming a total farce. It would be a lot less hypocritical if it was completely removed and you started to simply publish and reject submissions as you like. The tasvideos.org site can then become your personal collection of runs you like.
It shows flawed playing (by superhuman standards).
Only because you're now aware of something that can possibly invalidate its flawlessness -- which you could not figure out by just watching.
I am by no means a programmer, a TASer, nor do I know how to use an emulator outside of changing the controls and playing the game. Yet in spite of this, I had already noticed two key flaws even before I finished watching this movie.
-In 1-1, It can be seen that running is faster than using the shell suit. The first level! (it is also, in my opinion, one of the most enjoyable levels to watch because of the faster screen scrolling and high-flying antics demonstrated by Mario)
-In 8-1, Thank you for demonstrating the flag pole glitch half way through the movie. An untrained individual wouldn't have known it was possible without you having shown it within the movie itself. Arguments have been made in other submissions that glitches have been found in the middle of an unhexeditable TAS and could not be changed in the beginning of the run and it was published anyway. But shall we fast forward to 8-3? you approach the flag in the exact same way yet you do not do it again, nor do you do it at all in the run outside of 8-1.
There were also at least one other questionable improvement that I, a nonTASer, could have pointed out. I only don't include it in my previous two points because I am not sure if it is improvable.
-In 8-3, Couldn't more boosts have been attained from the air coming out of the pipes?
Two other possible improvements were pointed out that didn't even occur to me before I read the thread. These points were made by experienced TASers, which is why I did not notice them myself.
-Saving after every castle
-Entering a door in the middle of the door rather than at the first possible moment so mario doesn't walk to the middle and then open it.
Many arguments have been made, dismissed and refuted in this thread, but several of my reasons were made not through my own experience, through this thread, other TASes, or through the knowledge and experience of other members of this site, but through the watching the movie and comparing it to other parts of itself
EDIT:Warp, I agree with several of your reasons why this movie is unpublishable, but I believe what is seen as you overreacting (which is arguably NOT overreacting) causes others to dismiss your points out of the fact that you are being visibly angry and not logical.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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I think the debate about it being published with known improvements can end. Yes, there were known improvements at the time of publication.
I published this movie to draw more attention to the birth of DS TASing. I've already admitted this. It didn't matter about the votes in this case, or the precendent, or anything like that. You guys need to lighten up. This was supposed to be a fun event!
If you think I am going to make a habit of publishing my own movies, you are wrong. Also I consulted both mmbossman and bisqwit and got a green light from both of them. I guess one of them should have typed a message on my submission before I hit the publish button. But even then, people would have said I was pulling strings to get my movie published.
Think of this as simply a promotional video. You can disagree with that decision, that is fine. I respect the point Nitsuja brought up. That is something I hadn't considered at the time of publication.
If you think I am setting the precedent to publish movies that have known improvement then you would be....right. I don't know if you noticed but things have gotten more lax on TASvideos regarding that.
I'm suprised mz is so upset about it, as this is what i thought he was wanting, a more variety of movies and less concern about it being so optimized before it can be published. I suspect I'm not going to be able to please him, no matter what I do though.
Edit: Well, adelikat already explained his thing before I finished posting this, so yeah. If this should be deleted, just ask and it shall be done.
--------
I do indeed see what your argument is, Warp. As far as I'm gathering, you're furious that adelikat made his own TAS, then published it and posted it before there could be a timely consensus with everybody on the matter, am I correct?
If this is the case, I don't think that this was done maliciously. I agree that the run was kind of rough and may not have been the best choice to be the first showing of TASes of DS games, but I think that adelikat just jumped the gun a bit ethically some in order to promote the site. I've seen a lot of people screwing around with positions of power on a community and heard a lot more horror stories as it pertains to that also. However, I don't believe that the breach of etiquette was a malicious act toward the community. I think adelikat, in other aspects, has stepped up quite well in assisting with both site operation and TAS emulator development. From what I've seen so far, he's not seemed to be arrogant or mean-spirited about matters.
Was what he did questionable? Of course. Do I think it was purposefully mean? Not really. I think he had the betterment of the community in mind, it just came out wrong. Seems like an honest mistake to me, and I don't feel as if I should fault him for it.
If there's anything that I haven't clarified here, let me know and I'll do the best that I can to fix that up. I fully admit that I'm not a great arguer, but I just wanted to see if I understood your concerns properly and give my point of view of the matter.
I'm suprised mz is so upset about it, as this is what i thought he was wanting, a more variety of movies and less concern about it being so optimized before it can be published. I suspect I'm not going to be able to please him, no matter what I do though.
Sure... What I don't like about this is how this movie only got a different treatment just because it was made by you.
gia expressed better what I (and probably others too) think about this publication:
gia wrote:
bullshit bisqwit, I find it cool that an unoptimized run was accepted and dont mind a change of policies towards that, but if that's only gonna be for your friends then... (you trying to rationalize why this can be given preferential treatment but others can't due to not being first anymore)
why dont you accept this while you are at it, theres no other supply for it either: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7964
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
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I've already said I would have published this movie if it weren't mine. If you don't want to take my word for that, then I think we are done discussing this. You've already made up your mind no matter what I say.
What I don't like about this is how this movie only got a different treatment just because it was made by you.
It's already been established that adelikat didn't publish this because it was his own run, but because it was the first DS TAS. I.e. even if it had been made by someone else, it would have still been published (as I said just a few posts ago). There's no need to make this debate any longer by just repeating the same things over and over.
EDIT: Bah, beaten by adelikat.
It's already been established that adelikat didn't publish this because it was his own run, but because it was the first DS TAS. I.e. even if it had been made by someone else, it would have still been published (as I said just a few posts ago).
Except someone else couldn't have made it because the emulator was made public only after this movie was submitted. :o)
gia's points still stand, as I see them; but I agree that nothing good will come from making this debate any longer, very sadly.
It seems adelikat, Bisqwit and the few others will never see why this publication has been bad for the credibility of the website and the judges; and the rest of us will never see why it's so important to have a few more hits on the website, even if we have to sacrifice other stuff.
You're just fucking stupid, everyone hates you, sorry to tell you the truth. no one likes you, you're someone pretentious and TASes only to be on speed game, but don't have any hope, you won't get there.
bullshit bisqwit, I find it cool that an unoptimized run was accepted and dont mind a change of policies towards that, but if that's only gonna be for your friends then... (you trying to rationalize why this can be given preferential treatment but others can't due to not being first anymore)
I'll just answer that with this:
adelikat wrote:
If you think I am setting the precedent to publish movies that have known improvement then you would be....right. I don't know if you noticed but things have gotten more lax on TASvideos regarding that.
It's already been established that adelikat didn't publish this because it was his own run, but because it was the first DS TAS. I.e. even if it had been made by someone else, it would have still been published (as I said just a few posts ago).
Except someone else couldn't have made it because the emulator was made public only after this movie was submitted. :o)
gia's points still stand, as I see them; but I agree that nothing good will come from making this debate any longer, very sadly.
It seems adelikat, Bisqwit and the few others will never see why this publication has been bad for the credibility of the website and the judges; and the rest of us will never see why it's so important to have a few more hits on the website, even if we have to sacrifice other stuff.
Nothing more true has ever been said in this thread.
/thread
