Posted: 11/8/2017 9:20 PM
Post subject: Definition of "Major skip glitch" movie class
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
I cleared such class in A2600 Kangaroo. [2564] A2600 Kangaroo by yep2yel in 01:13.01 [2571] A2600 Kangaroo by NitroGenesis in 00:34.79 The latter improves by using the thing we all know from Donkey Kong: horizontal screen wrap. In case of this game, it cuts half of the time, with a simple OOB glitch. I don't think it's a Game Breaking Glitch. The problem is, how do I prove it isn't? Sure, we know what kind of game breaking glitches we're used to: credits warp, ACE, SRAM corruption, skipping from level 1 to level 1000, all that stuff. But where do we actually draw the line to fix ambiguity and misinterpretation? Back when the term "Major skip glitch" was introduced, we were looking for a term, and SDA already had this "with/without major skips" thing. We do such skips using glitches, so we called them major skip glitches. Here's what SDA has:
SDA Rules wrote:
Some games have tricks or glitches that allow you to skip a major part of the game. In this case there will be a with large-skips category for the game (for instance, skipping entire dungeons in Zelda games). Runs using warps that skip large parts of the game (e.g. warp zones in Super Mario Bros.) are treated the same as runs with large-skips, but will be labeled with warps instead. with uber large-skip glitches: Some games contain glitches that go beyond skipping portions of the game and allow you to literally skip the vast majority of the game. Credit warp runs typically go into this category.
Most of us were thinking about the latter category when adding Major skip glitch class, with examples like I described. My own impression has always been that Major glitch skip is when you skip most of the game using a elaborate glitch that goes beyond Heavy glitch abuse movie class, which can be called "usual" already due to its extreme popularity and long history. Heavy glitching is traditional already. Major skip glitch is still somewhat exceptional. If you look through http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3041Y.html it's probably not always possible to simply go by time comparison with the "fastest without that glitch" movie. I'll check them against my definition within a week, as there's quite a few of them, but maybe someone already knows of ones that don't fit into that list at all, or don't fit into my definition, or are missing from the list? Put them here. And also put your thoughts on what the definition should be.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/10/2017 2:49 PM
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feos
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Looks like nobody dislikes my definitions, huh?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/10/2017 5:42 PM
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Warp
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When I read your post, it was a bit unclear to me what exactly it's saying. It's a bit confusing. I know that it's not very helpful for me to just say this without going into a deep analysis (which I might do in a later post), but I'm wondering if other people are likewise not really getting the point and that's why they aren't rushing to reply. (Oh, and this is my 7000th post. Celebrations.)
Posted: 11/10/2017 6:26 PM
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feos
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The problem is, we don't have any explanation here http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html of what this movie class means and how to apply it: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3041Y.html
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/10/2017 7:18 PM
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Radiant
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feos wrote:
The problem is, we don't have any explanation here http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html of what this movie class means and how to apply it: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C3041Y.html
So stop using it. It's effectively the same as "heavy glitch abuse", anyway.
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Posted: 11/10/2017 7:57 PM
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feos
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Bravo.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:07 PM
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Niamek
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Personally, I agree with Radiant.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:20 PM
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Alyosha
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I also agree with Radiant. It's un-necessary.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:29 PM
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feos
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Guys are you serious? You're telling me the complete collapse of the branching system due to unapproved mass renaming, as well as this whole thread, which caused all site staff members to unite their mental efforts and come up with a solid approach, happened over something completely meaningless?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:46 PM
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Niamek
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I didn't take part in that discussion. To me, the major skip glitch movie class (and the "forgeos major skip glitch") isn't a good movie tag. I also think the same way for the boss skip glitch tags: I don't think they should be kept. The category of the movie and it description is enough for me. If you'd want something that would list some of the movies used in the "no major skip glitch" movie category such as [2078] SNES Super Metroid "reverse boss order" by Saturn in 46:42.38, you could use a tag like the one that I proposed there: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19350.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:50 PM
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feos
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The tags (= categories = movie classes) are there to indicate which runs have similar qualities. You're not making the system easier to search through if you just drop some tags.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:57 PM
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Alyosha
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feos wrote:
Guys are you serious? You're telling me the complete collapse of the branching system due to unapproved mass renaming, as well as this whole thread, which caused all site staff members to unite their mental efforts and come up with a solid approach, happened over something completely meaningless?
Yes. "One can argue endlessly about anything," afterall.
Posted: 11/11/2017 2:59 PM
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Niamek
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I agree my proposed tag won't regroup movies that does something similar. It would still at least put them in a spot easy to find for runs that would forgoes a major skip glitch (or a unusual goal which was the aim of that tag). We went through that discussion last time, and I admit my defeat since nobody is interested in that one tag. Since I seemingly don't have the right definition or vision of the usage of the movie tags, I'll step aside. Enjoy discussing! :)
Posted: 11/11/2017 5:40 PM
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Habreno
Joined: 5/23/2014
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Considering all that this site has fubar'd in the recent past I take little faith in getting any results from any discussions had, which is why I haven't participated.
Posted: 11/11/2017 5:47 PM
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Radiant
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feos wrote:
all site staff members to unite their mental efforts and come up with a solid approach, happened over something completely meaningless?
Just because the staff united to make a central definition for one category does not imply that this is required for every category. Some of them may simply be superfluous, or insufficiently distinct from another category.
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Posted: 11/11/2017 6:11 PM
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feos
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Some thoughts regarding the definition. Sure, Major skip glitch is also heavy abuse of glitches. But the meaning we've been giving it when the movie class was created is way more specific. Back then, there has been a lot of runs branched "glitched", which would exactly cut the time dramatically, compared to the fastest runs without such glitches. There wasn't any special movie class for them. We were getting more and more of such runs and attempted to organize them better. And, importantly, to provide a way to group them, to observe by that group alone. Typical behavior of a tag. Due to collapse of the branching system that I mentioned, caused by the lack of sane policies, we had to invent terms that would reduce the ambiguity and work long-term. This is what is there now. But it was still imperfect, because some definitions weren't documented. Dropping a tag a few people don't want to try to define doesn't resolve any problems at all, and doesn't improve the site. The site has tags/movie classes that allow to sort by some parameter one is interested in. Some parameters can be parts of others, or overlap differently, but the goal is not just to mark something, but also to make that mark useful for site navigation and content consumption. So this is what we've been putting into the term. Major skip glitch - a glitch that allows to deny the internal game mechanics entirely and to beat the game dramatically faster than without that glitch. That approach was already a thing, we just structured it. Looking at the most canonical examples like [2926] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by BrunoVisnadi, Amaraticando, Masterjun in 00:41.81 [3424] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Sniq, total, Aran Jaeger in 07:09.68 one can get the idea what is meant by this, regarding amounts of time saved and regarding fundamental nature of the glitches. We do not have problems with the tag itself. Literally, nothing that would lead to collapse on a long run. Just lack of definition that would make tag use more consistent and grounded. So I repeat, dropping the tag doesn't solve any problems, because there aren't any. Instead it takes away a factor we're grouping movies by. If you guys see nothing common between these, you're being ignorant. If you don't see any difference between these, you're being ignorant.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 11/12/2017 3:33 PM
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Alyosha
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feos wrote:
If you guys see nothing common between these, you're being ignorant. If you don't see any difference between these, you're being ignorant.
I think what you are seeing feos is more apathy then ignorance. We've been down this road before and there is nothing at the end of it. I think we all trust you to make a suitable definition.
Posted: 11/12/2017 6:19 PM
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ais523
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The way I see things (which IIRC agrees with the way SDA sees things) is that a major skip is a sequence break that "reconnects the level graph", i.e. it makes it possible to get around a mechanic that gates progress from one part of the game to the next. Most games have rules for when major sections of the game become available (e.g. in Super Mario Bros. 1 completing a level or using a warp pipe connects to a specific other level, in Super Metroid you need to defeat 4 bosses to unlock the final area), and these rules are normally very clear and obvious to the player. A sequence break that nonetheless respects these rules (e.g. teleporting from the start of a level to the end) is a minor skip. A sequence break that violates the rules (e.g. wrong-warping in Yoshi's Island) is a major skip.
Posted: 11/20/2017 5:59 PM
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jlun2
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ais523 wrote:
The way I see things (which IIRC agrees with the way SDA sees things) is that a major skip is a sequence break that "reconnects the level graph", i.e. it makes it possible to get around a mechanic that gates progress from one part of the game to the next. Most games have rules for when major sections of the game become available (e.g. in Super Mario Bros. 1 completing a level or using a warp pipe connects to a specific other level, in Super Metroid you need to defeat 4 bosses to unlock the final area), and these rules are normally very clear and obvious to the player. A sequence break that nonetheless respects these rules (e.g. teleporting from the start of a level to the end) is a minor skip. A sequence break that violates the rules (e.g. wrong-warping in Yoshi's Island) is a major skip.
Does replacing a stage with another count? In other words, completing the same stage more than once, and fooling the game into thinking "newer" stages count as such? For instance, Over the Hedge any% completes an earlier stage at the end, and the game thinks the last stage is done instead, giving the ending.
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.