This site was founded when a certain Super Mario Bros. 3 TAS was discovered on the internet. Ever since then, the job of this site was to push video games to their very limits.
Today, almost 16 years later, it is possible to submit a Super Mario Bros. 3 TAS which might be the very embodiment of a video game being pushed to the limit.

Game objectives

  • Aims to complete the game as fast as possible
  • Exploits a workaround to a hardware bug
  • Presses buttons real fast (requires SubNESHawk core to be enabled for even faster button pressing!)

Comments

You might have seen a similar short SMB3 run in the TAS block at SGDQ 2016, or maybe you've read some of the many articles on the internet which followed the showcase.
It is important to note that, despite dwangoAC saying "it is a valid completion" in the video, it was in fact not a valid completion of the game. The showcased run enters the peach cutscene and then softlocks when the world cutscenes were supposed to appear. This was due to the game being in the wrong mode.
The method to make the real ending appear and complete the game is as simple as changing the (NMI-)game mode at $0100 to the correct value 0x20 before jumping to the credits. What is not as simple to see is how much trouble this one address is, taking months of work just to accomplish this one additional write.

How it came to be

2016-07-07
<ais523>    Masterjun: that said, my default is to assume that any game
            has an ACE glitch unless it's very simple, and possibly even then
<Masterjun> I'm guessing the same for at least the SNES games
<Masterjun> and I'm betting a lot of NES games also have some kind of major
            glitch that simply wasn't discovered yet
<Masterjun> I'm thinking about those bank switches and exact instruction timings
<ais523>    this reminds me, I found a technique to create precise amounts of lag
            on the majority of NES games
))

DPCM bug

"If the DMC DMA is running, and happens to start a read in the same cycle that the CPU is trying to read from $4016 or $4017, the values read will become invalid." (full explanation)
This is a bug in the hardware of a NES console itself. In simple terms, it refers to audio processing occasionally interfering with input polling, leading to wrong button presses being read by the game.

DPCM bug workaround

It seems like developers of games for the NES were aware of this hardware bug. To avoid wrong button presses, they had to implement a software workaround. This can be approached in different ways or simply ignored.
In SMB3 specifically, developers programmed the game to repeatedly repoll the controller until two consecutive inputs matched. This means in normal play you usually repeat 2 loops (no bug occuring), or maybe 3 or 4 loops (bug occuring once) until you have two inputs matching.
An extra loop only takes 222 cycles (124 microseconds) of the ~30000 cycles in a frame, and it's unlikely that a human changes input 8000 times a second.

DPCM bug workaround exploit

Now this is TASVideos: When human skills are just not enough. So of course we can mash buttons really fast. This is what ais523 meant when talking about creating precise amounts of lag. By continuously changing inputs we can delay the game because it keeps waiting until two consecutive inputs match.
For convenience, the game has the controller reading routine inside the NMI, which is the interrupt that runs at the start of each frame. As soon as it begins we delay the execution by changing the input each loop. Important to notice here is how NMI switches to different banks at the start, and would switch them back at the end. Eventually the NMI is interrupted by IRQ, a different interrupt which is set to run at scanline 192 or 193 (= late in the frame). IRQ expects the NMI to have finished long ago and jumps to $A826. Unfortunately for the game, NMI did not yet finish and the banks are still switched. So it jumps into the middle of a wrong routine. A lot of crazy things happen (such as interrupts interrupting each other), and they keep getting more out of control because of IRQ trying to execute on wrong banks.
Until at some point the very unlikely scenario happens where a leftover byte from an indirect $9Axx jump is executed. Instruction 0x9A is TXS, Transfer X to Stack Pointer. Here, X happens to be 0x00, so the Stack Pointer (innitially 0xFF and in normal execution 0xC0-0xFF) is suddenly 0x00 and after a return it's 0x02. The Stack Pointer points to memory values $01xx, so after another BRK we will overwrite $0100 (= NMI mode) and $0101 (= IRQ mode). They change into "default mode" where IRQ finally doesn't jump into different banks. So we're now at the start of RAM filled mostly with 00's we can safely execute.
This is where the adventure begins.

The goal

We want to reach the peach cutscene and then the credits. This has 6 requirements.
  1. The $C000 bank needs to be 0x19
  2. The $A000 bank needs to be 0x18
  3. The PPU control register copy ($00FF) needs to be 0xA8
  4. NMI mode ($0100) needs to be set to 0x20
  5. Jump to $B85A
  6. The Stack Pointer needs to be sane (not lower than around 0x30), so it doesn't overwrite game modes.
At first, this seems too ambitious to be feasible. However, the first 3 requirements are already met and req. 6 works out automatically in most cases.
We can choose from two different approaches: First approach, set NMI mode (req. 4) and jump to credits (req. 5) manually. Or second approach, jump to a location which does it for us. But does such a convenient location exist? Yes, $8FE3 is what the game executes to prepare for the end sequence. There, the first 5 requirements are executed.
So we can either:
1. Set $0100 to 0x20 and jump to $B85A.
2. Jump to $8FE3.

The tools

What makes this whole movie possible in the first place are the bytes of controller input stored in RAM. We have two controllers with 8 buttons each. In order from most to least significant bit the buttons go: A B Select Start Up Down Left Right. In addition to currently pressed input bytes, we also have newly pressed input bytes (those are always a subset of the currently pressed bits). In particular $17 is P1 input, $18 is P1 new input. Then, $F5 is P1 new input, $F6 is P2 new input, $F7 is P1 input, $F8 is P2 input.
That's barely enough to do anything, and it gets even worse: Up+Down and Left+Right presses are cancelled out. This makes building bytes that end on x3,x7,xB,xC,xD,xE, or xF impossible, limiting our choice of opcodes.
As a first example, let's construct a jump to $B85A. There are three jump instructions: JSR(0x20), JMP(0x4C), indirect JMP(0x6C). As you can see, the JMP's are already impossible as they end on xC (= requiring an Up+Down press). So let's construct 20 5A B8. None of the bytes require opposite directional inputs, so that's good. Since two bytes are not enough, we have to use the second block of inputs. It doesn't really matter if we start at $F5 or $F6, but the important part to notice is how the 0x20 and 0xB8 are made with the same input. For this to be possible, all bits in the first byte need to occur in the second byte, which is the case here! This is exactly what the showcased run did, but unfortunately without setting $0100 (req. 4).
Now the second example, let's do the same thing except we jump to $8FE3. This gives us 20 E3 8F, which is impossible because 0xE3 ends on x3 and 0x8F ends on xF. It's also impossible because 0x8F doesn't have the required 0x20 bit.

The loop

Executing anything just once is not enough. We need a loop to be able to either set $0100, or somehow get that $8FE3 jump. Thankfully we have two areas of inputs to work with. We can use the 4-byte block as a loop back by executing 20 00 00, jumping back to the beginning of RAM. Then we can lag the game enough to get new inputs, execute something at the 2-byte block, execute until the 4-byte block, and loop back again.
It's at this point where it's possible to take a million approaches and have a million problems.

The problems

Just as an example, here is the list of some things that can go wrong:
  • Every BRK(0x00) instruction we execute is a 2 byte opcode, so we need to be careful how we're aligned, either executing even or odd addresses as opcodes.
  • The 3 byte opcode 0x1E sitting at $16, skipping the execution of your $17/$18 completely.
  • The counter at $15 counting upwards through all the opcodes.
  • The counter at $10 counting downwards through all the opcodes.
  • The execution in between, changing the value of A in unpredictable ways. A is unusable.
  • The two 0xA0's sitting at $8D and $8E, executing one of A0 A0 or A0 00 in each loop, setting Y to 0xA0 or 0x00. Y is unusable.
  • The code accidentally stumbling across one of the 12 KIL instructions, stopping execution completely.
  • The fact that setting X to 0xFF, then executing 'STA $01,x' does not write to $0100 but instead wraps around to $0000.

The execution

What is done in this movie is writing 0x8F to $F9 (which is just after the input bytes). Then we're able to form 20 E1 with input, making a jump to $8FE1 (not quite $8FE3, but it will reach the same place if the zero flag isn't set).
To make that write, we need at least two registers. The A and Y registers are unusable. But we can make Y usable by somehow avoiding the A0 A0 block at $8D. After both X and Y are usable, we can change their values and either use STX $ZZ,y or STY $ZZ,x to make the write.
BytesInstructionDescription
48 48PHA PHAThe Stack Pointer is at 0x04, and just about to overwrite the NMI mode with a bad value. We manipulate it to avoid that.
D6 14DEC $14,xX is 0x00, so this decreases $14 from 0x00 to 0xFF. This is done to (eventually) skip over the counter at $15 and the byte at $16, as 0xFF is a 3 byte instruction. Note how using C6 14 (DEC $14) as an instruction wouldn't have worked due to the 0x10 bit in 0x14 not being in 0xC6.
CA (C2)DEX (NOP)This decreases X from 0x00 to 0xFF. We want X to be odd so the second byte is different (it happens to do nothing here).
D6 10DEC $10,xSince X is 0xFF, this decreases $0F from 0x00 to 0xFF. Another preparation to skip over problematic addresses ($10 in this case).
C6 06DEC $06We decrease $06 from 0x00 to 0xFF. This finally completes the setup. No matter whether we execute odd or even addresses, we will hit the 0xFF at $0F (skipping over $10), then we will execute 0x00 at $12, and then 0xFF at $14 (skipping over $15 and $16), to assure we execute $17 every loop.
D6 40DEC $40,xWe decrease $3F from 0x00 to 0xFF to execute even addresses after this point. This is necessary because we can only write specific values to even addresses (using only X).
A2 20LDX #$20Load X with 0x20 for the next write.
86 86STX $86We write 0x20 to $86, which executes JSR $0000 for us without using the 4-byte block at the end. Additionally, we now skip the A0 A0 at $8D, so Y is now usable.
88 (08/00)DEY (PHP/BRK)We decrease Y from 0x00 all the way to 0xF9 to prepare for the write to $F9
A2 A0LDX #$A0We now set X to 0xA0 to be decreased to 0x8F, but we can use a trick here.
9A (18)TXS (CLC)We transfer X to the Stack Pointer. We can decrease the Stack Pointer faster than X.
(28) 20(PLP) JSR $0000$19 and $1A are both 00, so we can shorten the loop and decrease the Stack Pointer faster.
20 00JSR $0000Since we can lag the game whenever, we can precisely time the point where the Stack Pointer reaches 0x8F.
BA 9ATSX (TXS)We transfer the Stack Pointer back to X.
96 00STX $00,yThe setup is complete and we can finally write X (= 0x8F) into $00+Y (= $F9). Now we just need to break out of the loop we created.
84 84STY $84We write 0xF9 into $84. This is a 3 byte opcode so we jump over the 0x20 we wrote to $86 earlier.
20 E1 8FJSR $8FE1The zero flag is not set so we execute $8FE3 and win the game (for real this time).

Special thanks to

  • Alyosha, for creating SubNESHawk, the core that allows button presses once per poll instead of once per video frame.
  • total, for initially playing around with this and creating a Lua script for allowing subframe input on FCEUX.
  • Site admins, for implementing the correct movie file parsing.

Suggested Screenshot


Introduction

Firstly, I have to open with how much of a technical marvel it was to figure out how to beat the game from the title screen. The opening levels, all of the other Worlds, and the notorious World 8 autoscrollers are now nowhere to be seen. A TAS of this type was first showcased at Summer Games Done Quick 2016 (SGDQ 2016); however, after some fine-tuning, it was possible to reach the true ending of the game instead of simply being stuck on the credits screen. If the TAS that was showcased at SGDQ 2016 was submitted to TASVideos, it would have to be rejected because it technically does not complete the game; however, the authors found a way to trigger a valid completion. With that, everything looks to be in good order, but this was an absurdly difficult TAS to judge due to the precedent that this decision would set for future game end glitch TASes that would be submitted to TASVideos.

The Glitch

This TAS abuses the DPCM workaround that the developers of this game implemented. With Super Mario Bros. 3 (SMB3), the game developers implemented a system in which the controller would be polled two times until two consecutive inputs matched. However, this can be abused to cause unintended interactions between the NMI and the IRQ and then unintended jumps in memory. In short, this is a very powerful major glitch, and something with effects to this magnitude had not necessarily been seen before now.
In terms of the legitimacy of this glitch, it has been confirmed thanks to dwangoAC’s help that this TAS indeed console verifies on an actual NES. While it is inconsistent, it is confirmed that the authors are taking advantage of a legitimate bug in the game instead of an emulator bug. The evidence of console verification can be found here.
The thing is, the DPCM glitch is not unique to SMB3. It can be summarized as follows: you have NES games with a DPCM glitch, some of those games have a DPCM workaround, and fewer games have an abusable DPCM workaround that allows for a game end glitch similar to this one.
Around a month before this was submitted, Total and I worked on the Super Mario Bros. 2 (SMB2USA) game end glitch. It also takes advantage of the DPCM glitch, but the difference is that a memory setup needs to be achieved in the first level before taking advantage of the glitch. For anyone curious, the documentation can be read here to see how it compares to this SMB3 submission.
Now, there are other games that have an abusable DPCM workaround too, but it does not appear that many games have a DPCM workaround that permits reaching the game’s ending at the title screen. If all games had a DPCM workaround that could be abused to this magnitude, there would be some more concern about allowing TASes that take advantage of this glitch, but this is not the case.

Feedback

Feedback as a whole was mixed for this TAS. The feedback and ratings are not positive enough to warrant acceptance into the moons tier. Therefore, this TAS has to go to the vault tier if it is accepted. There was an equal divide between the number of people who wished for this TAS to obsolete the published run and the number of people who wished for this TAS to be accepted as a new branch. During the initial collection of feedback, I polled people for their definition of gameplay. There were different opinions as to what constitutes gameplay, so this led to a staff discussion to sort things out and create a clear-cut definition for this important concept.

Gameplay

There is some debate as to whether or not this is a gameplay improvement compared to the published run. This is not the first time that longer game end glitch TASes have been obsoleted by significantly shorter ones, so it’s time to look at past cases to see how those decisions panned out and what the differences are with those situations compared to this situation.
Super Mario World’s (SMW’s) first game end glitch TAS was submitted at the end of 2011. It showcased the null sprite glitch by first completing Yoshi’s Island 2 (YI2) and then moving to Yoshi’s Island 3 (YI3) to manipulate the memory values necessary, including RNG, for the glitch to work. The glitch worked by spawning fish from Yoshi in the underground section of YI3, which changed RNG addresses to activate the glitch. That followed with using glitches to duplicate Yoshi sprites and get a cape for the final stages of memory manipulation which would allow for a credits warp. This TAS was obsoleted by a faster strategy that reached the credits from the underground section of YI2. That variant brought sprites to the underground and used a new flying block stun glitch, some enemy slot manipulation, positioning of a P-Switch, and the use of a jump to controller data to reach the credits. Eventually, the SMW game end glitch TAS would see iterations that reach the credits just shortly after collecting Yoshi in YI2 using the item swap glitch because the charging chuck enemies have properties similar to powerups that can be used to jump to the Open Bus region of the SNES.
Now, let’s look at the progression of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island (SMW2:YI). In 2007, a warp glitch was discovered that allowed for warping to the last level of the game (6-8) by manipulating the coin count and pressing left+right on the controller. The warp glitch branch went through several minor improvements over a few years. Eventually, that type of TAS was obsoleted by a game end glitch TAS that used the warp glitch to reach 2-2 and proceeded to perform a null sprite swap, which can be used to jump to controller data and then the credits. After that, SMW2:YI game end glitch was improved again through a different route, in which the player uses the warp glitch to reach 1-2 and uses the infinite tongue glitch to jump to controller data and then the credits.
So, what makes SMB3 different in this case? In these submissions, there was some sort of improvement in the route, but the playable character was still visible to the viewer in these submissions. Mario, Yoshi, or both characters were still in action with these game end glitch improvements. With this submission, however, all of the work is being done from the title screen, so there is the argument that having “no gameplay” means that the gameplay was not technically improved compared to the published run. In other words, a direct comparison to the published run in terms of gameplay cannot easily be made due to the drastically different ways in which the credits were reached. On the other hand, there is the argument that having less gameplay, even if there is none, is a gameplay improvement compared to the published run. However, these are not ideal ways to judge this TAS in terms of improved or unimproved gameplay for a couple of reasons.

TASes with less gameplay do not always obsolete TASes with more gameplay, even with the same goal in mind

First of all, faster completion TASes with the same goal in mind may not always obsolete slower ones. An example scenario that I could pull here is the SMB3 warps TAS that was submitted in October 2018. With this TAS, there was a speed/entertainment trade-off which involved using a faster and more innovative route through 8-Fortress; however, it turned out that when the TAS was made, it was actually one frame slower to use that route instead of the standard route that was used in decades past due to worse luck with RNG values with Bowser’s routine. Now, a one frame improvement to that TAS could have been submitted with the overall entertainment reduced by a certain margin, but obsoletion is not an ideal approach in that scenario. For small improvements, it is ideal for entertainment to be at least as good as the published TAS. While collecting the two warp whistles to warp to and traverse through World 8 is no longer the fastest way of beating the game, it needs to be remembered that it once was the method of fastest completion. For anyone looking for more than a hypothetical scenario, take a look at this “faster completion” TAS that was not accepted for publication. TASVideos does have entertainment at heart, and while the Vault may exist for movies that do not meet entertainment standards, the fact that the Vault exists does not mean that obsoletion is a given.

Gameplay is what results in a goal being fulfilled

Instead of comparing gameplay by visual means, we have to keep the overall goals in mind. Both TASes sought to reach the credits as fast as possible. However, they did so by using different strategies. Part of gameplay involves being innovative to find different types of strategies, routes, and optimizations in order to satisfy the goal in mind. In essence, both TASes reach the same goal, but this submission fulfills that goal through a much faster strategy. In that sense, this TAS is a gameplay improvement compared to the published run.
While judging this TAS, I stumbled upon a rejected TAS of Kirby Avalanche that skipped to the ending straight from the title screen. I did consider the idea that the two TASes may not look different to the average viewer and without any form of context, the TASes would be nearly identical to the viewer. The main difference between this submission and the Kirby Avalanche submission is that this submission required some very careful controller manipulation in order to jump to the credits, while the Kirby Avalanche submission used a debug code to reach the credits. At TASVideos, we demand more effort than entering in a debug code to jump to the credits. While there may be a similar viewing experience, we filter out runs that break our movie rules by rejecting those runs. This TAS was a game end glitch, while the Kirby Avalanche TAS could not be considered a game end glitch in any form. Since we have branches, we can publish this SMB3 movie with the branch “game end glitch” so viewers know that a glitch is being exploited to reach the credits. Perhaps I would be uncomfortable publishing a movie like this without a branch name, but we have branches so everything is fine in that regard.

Movie Rules

This initially gave us confusion due to some clauses within the movie rules and judge guidelines concerning gameplay improvements. These were as follows:
When comparing against a prior movie for faster time, the faster time must come from improved play in the actual game-play segments. For example, gaining time by switching to another version which loads faster, has shorter cut-scenes, or by more optimized usage of the title screen menus is not counted as an actual time improvement. A movie which doesn't have any actual in-game game-play improvements over its published predecessor will not be accepted.
The US U versions are generally preferred over the Japanese J version due to the use of English language, which is easier to understand for the general audience. However, the Japanese audience here is significant, and there is no longer a specific requirement at TASVideos to use one version over another. Keep in mind that time gained solely through basic ROM differences will be discounted for the purpose of comparison. This includes: time gained through shorter cutscene text and speech boxes due to Japanese writing being more compact; differences in title screen, cutscenes, and menus (unless menus are the game's main control interface). Only actual game-play improvements will be considered. For example:
  • there's a published movie made on a (U) ROM;
  • the title screen for this game takes 100 frames less on a (J) ROM;
  • a movie made on a (J) ROM is submitted, that is 101 frames faster than the movie made on a (U) ROM.
The improvement to be judged in this example is just 1 frame; the 100 frame gain from a shorter title screen is discounted.
The reasoning behind the rules regarding title screen improvements not being counted as gameplay improvements is that they require little effort in order to execute. At TASVideos, we want to have meaningful publications, which is why these rules are in place.

Where to go from here?

First, we need to define the types of input that a game can have. It seems fair that input can be divided into three different types of categories:
  1. The first category is input that does not have any relationship or connection with in-game action. This usually consists of the input performed on title screens or selection or settings menu.
  2. The second category of input that has loose relationship to the in-game action. For SMB3, an example of this would be input performed during the World map (such as moving from level to level or equipping a P-Wing from the inventory) or buying items in an adventure/RPG game.
  3. The third and final category is input that directly relates to or creates the in-game action. This is when the player is using input to progress through the challenges or obstacles that a game has to offer.
At TASVideos, we have typically looked for improvements in the third and final category, although improvements have been accepted to the second category as well. Improvements to the first category were not accepted unless there was an improvement in the second or third category of input.
Going back to this submission, all of the input falls under this first category; however, that input greatly shortens the amount of input falling under categories two and three. In that sense, it did improve gameplay in that regard.
For clarification, we have chosen to add a definition of gameplay in the glossary section. That definition is as follows:
An in-game task or puzzle that is meant to be accomplished or solved by a human while playing the game, by sending inputs to the game and getting its reaction.
This TAS successfully meets the objective of reaching the credits by quite literally sending carefully-crafted inputs at the title screen. This is a good general definition of gameplay for our site.

The Verdict

Now, there are three courses of action that could be taken. I will run through the positives and negatives behind each of these.

Reject

While there was indeed some initial confusion with the movie rules, it turns out that this TAS does not break any of them. The movie rules are one thing to look at, but to double check for 100% certainty, we can also recall what the goals of TASVideos are and see how this submission lives up to TASVideos’ mission.
TASVideos.org is committed to providing the best in tool-assisted speedruns and superhuman play. Our runs are held to high standards, and only high quality runs will be published on the site. We also prefer quality over quantity — a poor quality run will not be accepted whether it is a game new to the site or an improvement to a pre-existing run. Our runs may not be perfect (if that is even possible), but are still high quality and aim to be as entertaining as possible.
We make these movies because they are entertaining to watch, and because we are curious how far a game can be pushed. The process of creating them is also a form of problem-solving and challenge to our intellect and ingenuity. If a child receives a box containing an expensive toy as a birthday present, it's possible that he'll enjoy the box more than the toy. This is creativity. We're doing the same for these games. Instead of walking on the paths created for us, we create our own paths, our own legs and so on. And we're not listening to people who say "you can't do that!". Just like children.
While this TAS does not live up to the goal of entertainment, this is a superplay and has zero chance of being replicated in real time. SMB3 is pushed to the brink of its limit, and the way in which this TAS was pushed to its limit required immense amounts of creativity and problem solving abilities. Overall, it does not fit the mission of the website perfectly, but it fits the mission fairly well. There is no sensible reason to reject this TAS. That would mean that our site would only be hosting a significantly slower iteration of the SMB3 game end glitch with no chance for a faster version to shine.

Accepting to a new branch

This is assuming that the gameplay between the two TASes is so wildly different that a new branch has to be created. I see that the main benefit to this is that two types of game end glitches are showcased on TASVideos at the same time, and one type of game end glitch may cater to the audience more than the other. While some improvements may necessitate the creation of a new branch, having two game end glitch branches does not seem suitable for this game or any game on TASVideos. We had a case where two Super Metroid categories were obsoleted by a game end glitch category, but we have never had a case where two game end glitch TASes have coexisted side by side.
This is when my experience with TASing SMB3 comes into play. While the 7-1 wrong warp variant of this game end glitch does have the entertainment merit over this submission, it is also improvable without any route changes; however, those improvements would not increase that entertainment merit in any way. The entertainment merit would either stay the same or decrease if improvements to the 7-1 wrong warp route were made. In other words, what might seemingly be an attractive reason for having these two TASes separate from each other would eventually be a regrettable decision.
Looking at both TASes from a goal standpoint, they both aimed to complete the game as fast as possible. The 7-1 wrong warp was thought to be the fastest way of accomplishing that goal back in 2014. Now, spamming subframe inputs from the title screen is the fastest way of accomplishing that goal. They both use a game-breaking glitch and both execute arbitrary code, and this effectively makes them the same category, no matter how you look at it or gameplay is defined. It does not make sense for two TASes of the same category to coexist with each other, and if we were to let that happen, we would need some sort of justification for how game end glitches can be differentiated from one another that can apply to all types of games. Even the two Super Metroid TASes that coexisted at the same time before being obsoleted by the game end glitch used completely different approaches while they both relied on game-breaking glitches. Overall, this would lead to disorder, encourage submissions with no obvious differences between branches, and flood the site with an infinite amount of meaningless publications.
We could also bring in the rejected 16 star TAS from Super Mario 64 (SM64) as an example. Collecting 16 stars and notably using MIPS the Rabbit was once the fastest way of beating the game, but then more backwards long jumps (BLJs) were discovered to cut down the number of stars required to beat the game. Now, only 1 key is required to beat the game. 16 star TASes prior to 2007 had the goal of beating the game as fast as possible, and so does the current 1 key TAS. Just as SM64 does not have two branches with the same overall goal in mind existing side by side, it does not feel appropriate to have two TASes that execute arbitrary code with the goal of reaching the credits, and this could lead to chaos with other games too.

Accepting as an improvement to the published run

This is the course of action given that this submission outperforms the published run in terms of gameplay based on the new definition above. While this TAS would only get the vault tier instead of the moons tier that the published run got, it is not the first time that something like this has happened before. Taking this route very clearly shows the fastest completion of SMB3 and keeps the number of branches to a reasonable minimum. In addition, it sets a precedent that limits the number of branches to other games that may have a potentially abusable DPCM workaround. This is the best option for the sake of organization.
There are some downsides to obsoletion, however. In this case, a less entertaining movie would be obsoleting a more entertaining one. As I elaborated earlier, this will not always be the case, but while this movie falls short compared to the published 7-1 wrong warp TAS in entertainment, it exceeds that TAS in terms of technical quality. Superior technical quality is what the rejected Ninja Gaiden precedent lacked compared to the published TAS at that time. Technical quality is essentially a redeeming factor for a TAS like this.
On another note, if we consider the hypothetical scenario that a TAS that reached the credits in the middle of 1-1 was submitted to obsolete the published run, that would indeed happen. If someone submitted a TAS that reached the credits during the first second of 1-1, that would obsolete the TAS that reached the credits in the middle of 1-1. Finally, if this TAS was submitted, it would obsolete the TAS that reached the credits during the first second of 1-1. Sometimes big steps can be alarming at first, but that concern would have not occurred if several smaller steps were taken instead of one big step.

Conclusion, Final Decision, and TL;DR

Overall, from reviewing this TAS, looking at past precedents, and revisiting our site goals and movie rules, I have deemed that TASes abusing the DPCM workaround, including this one, are allowed for this site, although barely. Congratulations on putting together the shortest TAS to ever be accepted by TASVideos. Accepting to vault as an improvement to the published run.
Spikestuff: But who was TAS? Publishing.


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When I first saw this run, it looked boring to me, and my initial feeling was to either reject it or publish as another branch. However, reading Maru's judgement notes, I find his line of thinking compelling, and exactly what we want. I approve wholeheartedly. Since I find this run boring for me, I'm glad it's going to the vault. The SMB3 TASs to watch are: [3922] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "warps" by Lord_Tom, Maru & Tompa in 10:24.34 - the clear normal run champion. [3028] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "warpless" by Lord_Tom & Tompa in 46:20.30 - shows more of the game without shortcuts. [2835] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "all levels" by Lord_Tom & Tompa in 1:04:36.90 - shows every level. [3050] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "arbitrary code execution" by Lord_Tom in 08:16.23 - shows off cleverness in exploiting the game for fun. [3918] SNES Super Mario All-Stars: Super Mario Bros. 3 "warps" by Maru in 10:23.51 - the clear normal run with SMAS version champion. [1035] SNES Super Mario All-Stars: Super Mario Bros. 3 "playaround" by Genisto in 1:06:46.28 - shows off cleverness in exploiting regular features of the game for fun.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
adelikat
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Nach wrote:
When I first saw this run, it looked boring to me, and my initial feeling was to either reject it or publish as another branch. However, reading Maru's judgement notes, I find his line of thinking compelling, and exactly what we want. I approve wholeheartedly.
Reading this is occurred to me that I haven't expressed this publicly. But this is precisely my experience as well. 100% agree. And excellent work to Maru, this was a tough judgement. And the logic changed my thinking on this issue :)
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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DrD2k9 wrote:
But you seem to only want to whine and complain that the entire community doesn't follow lockstep with your opinions.
I'm frankly getting completely tired of me not being able to express a dissenting opinion without some a-hole immediately starting to accuse me of wanting "the entire community to do what I want". Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. I was expressing my opinion. Are you capable of understanding that someone can express a personal opinion without it being a demand for the community to do something? I'm finding TASes to be more and more boring by the year, as they get more and more broken, with less and less visually entertaining gameplay. This particular TAS is the absolute culmination of this, which is especially prominent that this was arguably the first game that was ever TASed in a notorious way. It's not this particular TAS that's disgraceful. It's the overall state of TASing in general. The direction where it's heading. This particular TAS is just the pinnacle of it. The absolute and quintessential example. Is this particular run the future of TASing? If yes, then yes, I consider that disgraceful. I consider it pretty much the death of TASing as an interesting hobby to follow. That's my opinion. Where do you see a demand? Please point it out. If you can't, then shut up.
Once you've expressed your opinion, you don't have to keep repeating it every time someone else shares an opposing opinion just so your echoed opinion is the last one in the thread.
"Every time". Stop lying. I have done no such thing.
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Warp wrote:
But now it has been reduced to this. What was once a marvelous show of extraordinary superhuman gameplay, with the player seemingly achieving superhuman feats that are essentially impossible for mere mortals... is now but just an ending screen, and that's it. This is what the grandfather of TASing, the precursor, the originator, has been reduced to. Just an ending screen. There's nothing to see in this run anymore but just that. No gameplay, no marvelous superhuman feats, no extraordinary maneuvers, nothing. Just an ending screen. For this to be done to the original one, of all. I would be lying if I said that I'm not deeply disappointed. What a disgrace. I must confess that my passion for following TASing is getting worryingly low. Game after game is being broken more and more, until there's nothing left of what made TASing so marvelous in the beginning. TASes are becoming boring. It's like taking something beautiful and extraordinary to watch, a marvelous piece of art, and hammering it into a minuscule boring cube of trash that has nothing interesting to it. When the most "interesting" part of a TAS is reading a miles-long wall-wall-of-text technical description, something has gone horribly wrong. Meh.
I've been telling you for years that no one is taking down direct successors of superplays you've liked in the past. Branches you seem to be (or supposed to be) proud of keep existing just fine, alongside new glitched to death ones. You keep making it sound like we're obsoleting "regular any%" runs with "game end glitch" runs, over the course of many years. It's been explained several times that it's not true, and it's trivial to check for yourself. And I think we can now answer the question I asked in the first post I linked. You don't actually enjoy "regular any%" movies, otherwise you'd be happy they're still alive and well. You just want "game end glitch" (or ACE any%) branches to stop existing. And it's the idea you've been pushing for, for all these years.
Warp wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
But you seem to only want to whine and complain that the entire community doesn't follow lockstep with your opinions.
I'm frankly getting completely tired of me not being able to express a dissenting opinion without some a-hole immediately starting to accuse me of wanting "the entire community to do what I want". Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. I was expressing my opinion. Are you capable of understanding that someone can express a personal opinion without it being a demand for the community to do something?
Since co-existence of "regular any%" and "game end glitch" runs doesn't make you happy as we established, and you don't want the latter to exist at all, it's absolutely impossible for our community to make you happy by incorporating your notion as useful feedback. Because that'd mean people would have to loose content they're enjoying. Years ago I've been told that incorporating user feedback into policies is not what communities are meant to do. Like, they just express their feelings, it's never meant to be taken as a potential course of the site. Then a few people merely expressed their opinions about the "glitched" branch label, and merely expressed the desire to change it for the entire site, and boom, it led to a complete mess (like SNES Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island "no L+R, no null egg glitch"). So with this movie, we seem to be completely stuck. It's impossible to make a viewer happy no matter what we do. It's impossible for the viewer to stop complaining no matter what we do. It's impossible to account for the viewer feedback, because other viewers will be unhappy. And apparently, it's also impossible to make the viewer understand that we're stuck, and this can't be resolved.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
I've been telling you for years that no one is taking down direct successors of superplays you've liked in the past. Branches you seem to be (or supposed to be) proud of keep existing just fine, alongside new glitched to death ones. You keep making it sound like we're obsoleting "regular any%" runs with "game end glitch" runs, over the course of many years. It's been explained several times that it's not true, and it's trivial to check for yourself.
Am I misreading the judgement? It says: "Accepting to vault as an improvement to the published run." Vault contains exactly two types of run for a game: Any% and 100%. That means that this run has become the official, and only, any% run for this game, obsoleting the old one. Or has this rule changed some time along the line without me noticing it? Are there now different "branches" of any% for a given game? What does "as an improvement to the published run" mean, if not "this obsoletes the (one and only) existing any% run"?
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Morimoto has never made a "game end glitch" run. He's made a "warps" run, and that run is alive and well, as Masterjun said. Then, I guess the final paragraph isn't clearly saying that "game end glitch" is being obsoleted and not "warps", but the whole context clearly shows that this is the case. Obsoleting "warps" wasn't even considered once. Apparently, reading at least The Verdict is required before one feels like arguing against it, and it looks like you haven't done so. I'll turn those into headers now. EDIT: http://tasvideos.org/6466S.html#Verdict
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Apparently, reading at least The Verdict is required before one feels like arguing against it, and it looks like you haven't done so.
No matter how many times I read it, it still says the same thing: "Accepting to vault as an improvement to the published run." What "published run"? How many SMB3 runs are there in vault? What does that mean? Big part of all this confusion is that it's so hard to even find all the SMB3 runs and its different categories. I'm not even aware how many of them there are, or which one is (or which ones are) in vault. I still dream of tasvideos.org being redesigned with something more akin to what speedrun.com has done. For example, consider https://www.speedrun.com/smb3 There's brief info about the game on the left, and on the main list all the categories are clearly listed in tabs. When you click on a tab you get the entries for that category, and you can also click on the "view rules" button to see what that category means. (Obviously at tasvideos.org this exact design couldn't work because don't have a top list of entrants, but just one entry for each category. However, it could be something similar, perhaps listing all the categories vertically in boxes or something.)
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There is the game page http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros-3.html showing information about the game, and also all current publications and more. Alternatively, on any of SMB3 publication pages, click the "History of this entry" tab. There, every line starting with "Added" indicates a separate branch. The level of indentation shows order of obsoletion (in case of one movie obsoleting multiple others).
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
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To add to what Masterjun is saying, the one being obsoleted here is [2588] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Lord_Tom & Tompa in 02:54.98 and was the subject of discussion in this thread and the judgement notes. The one's not being obsoleted is the list I posted earlier.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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I have a feeling that I need to add some stuff here due to questions that people have asked me. Rejecting a run like this would essentially be placing a ban on DPCM workaround abuse. DPCM workaround abuse can be used to unleash a payload in 1-1 of SMB3, which does include being able to load the credits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CgXvIuZR40). If a TAS was submitted that reached the credits in 1-1 taking advantage of the same hardware glitch that this TAS uses, there would not be nearly as many complaints. Likewise, people wouldn't be raising many complaints about abusing the DPCM workaround to reach the credits in 1-1 of SMB2USA. https://www.twitch.tv/dwangoac/clip/TransparentMushyAnteaterMVGame Now, regarding having to differentiate game end glitches from each other, the only two ways to truly differentiate them are by how they look and other technical attributes. Obviously, for SMB3, these two game end glitches look very different, but what about for other games? SMW's current game end glitch run uses a jump to Open Bus, which is a region in the SNES that allows for several different possibilities. It's not that much different from the RTA record for this category (https://www.speedrun.com/smw/run/zp0q5rvm), but the latter does not use a controller payload to assist with reaching the credits. We have to go back in time to find a TAS that does not utilize the Open Bus region of the SNES (http://tasvideos.org/2380M.html) and even more back in time to find a TAS that does not take advantage of a jump to controller data (http://tasvideos.org/1945M.html). Both of these game end glitches look different enough from the current one, I'd say. The faster game end glitch obsoleted the slower one. If we lumped TASes taking advantage of this DPCM workaround into their own category, then what do we do about game end glitches taking advantage of the Open Bus region and TASes that rely on jumps to controller data? These two things are quite powerful too. Do those go in their own separate category? Remember that having meaningful publications is one of the goals of our site. The recent ALTTP game end glitch takes advantage of a jump to controller data, while the old publication did not. Should those have been separate all along? I think that's undoubtedly one big mess. We shouldn't be placing arbitrary limitations on the DPCM workaround because then, we could look at placing arbitrary limitations on the use of other things that have already been used to create faster game end glitch TASes. The DPCM workaround is just another thing that lets us push games to their limits. Admittedly, I would be concerned if every NES game was vulnerable to the glitch to the extent that SMB3 is, but I did make it clear in the judgment note that only a handful of games would be vulnerable to a quick credits warp like this. Overall, when everything is boiled down, there's no clear way to differentiate game end glitches that promotes organization and efficiency, but when the goals of the TASes are looked at (beating the game as fast as possible), this game end glitch TAS is going to obsolete the slower one.
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Probably more important is how making a reasonable separation from this run and the previous game end glitch is impossible. This exploit having anything to do with the DPCM bug was an assumption. There is no way to say which subroutines in the code were made to avoid the hardware bug. It's fine to theorize how "lumping" all these kinds of runs together would create difficult situations, but it should be mentioned that it's simply impossible.
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
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Masterjun wrote:
There is the game page http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros-3.html showing information about the game, and also all current publications and more.
In that case the search field at the top of the page would greatly benefit from improvement. I didn't even know that page existed, even though I tried searching for it. When I search for "super mario bros 3", the vast majority of the results on the first page have actually nothing to do with that game in question, and none of the results are for that page, even though logically speaking that should be the very first and prominent link in the results.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [4032] NES Super Mario Bros. 3 "game end glitch" by Masterjun & ais523 in 00:00.78
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Nominating this as the speedy TAS of 2019!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
MrCheeze
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Extremely disappointed to see this run - by my view, the most historic TAS ever - getting vaulted. Imagine if you all hadn't known about this from AGDQ already, just how blown away you would have been by the submission. And certainly there's plenty of general interest in a run such as this, the rather considerable news coverage back at the original GDQ reveal speaks to that. If nothing else, the amount of entertainment per second of runtime is absolutely off the charts.
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MrCheeze wrote:
Extremely disappointed to see this run - by my view, the most historic TAS ever - getting vaulted. If nothing else, the amount of entertainment per second of runtime is absolutely off the charts.
Tier is determined by reception. Other people have different opinions.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Dimon12321 wrote:
Nominating this as the speedy TAS of 2019!
It's ineligible for two reasons: 1) This is not published to Moons or higher. 2) There is no fast character movement in this TAS.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Bravo for the judgment notes! They were very well written and answered pretty much every aspect of the problem. And while I'm also disappointed that this movie didn't get Moon'd or Star'd, I have to agree with the decision for Vault given the general audience reaction. It might be worth considering adding some new tier equivalent to Star but limited to technical excellence instead of entertainment excellence though...
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SmashManiac wrote:
It might be worth considering adding some new tier equivalent to Star but limited to technical excellence instead of entertainment excellence though...
Technical excellence is extremely subjective in a deceptive way. I'd rather it not be a thing.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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As a slight extra factor, I'd like to point out that there is in fact precedence in Moons for TASes that optimize the entire gameplay away but have strong merits of their own. http://tasvideos.org/1145M.html http://tasvideos.org/4754S.html Though, I don't think that's nearly as important a point as the sheer significance and ingenuity of this run. It stands today as the answer to the question of just how far it is possible to go via TAS - the answer is, at least in the case of one game, total control of the console at any time whatsoever via inputs alone. And based on what I've read on the investigations into other games, I expect this SMB3 will still hold that position of "most extreme TAS possible" ten years from now, though time will tell. This run will and should be remembered, the knee-jerk reaction not so much. Another way of looking at it - this run is one of the exceptional few that can truly claim to have "solved" the game in question (SMB1 any% being the other famous example). There's a certain artistic merit to achieving perfection itself.
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You lost me with an argument of a TAS that was made in 2008 and states "Did you like watching this movie" not "Did you find this movie entertaining". Which also existed before the introduction of the Vault and was moved only to the Moons cause the ratings was high enough to be placed in the Moons. Meanwhile, this one is sitting at a rough 2.2 on the entertainment score. As for Ys that has an entertainment rating that should be in the Vault by now and hasn't been moved across for the time being. Also you're arguing Technical Entertainment over Actual Entertainment.
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Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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Ok, feel free to disregard the above runs. Like I said, not the main point. As arbitrary code execution speedruns go (as opposed to playarounds, which are a whole different beast), I would rank this as easily in the top 10% on the site for entertainment, maybe at the very top. It sounds like a joke to say that there "isn't a moment of downtime in the run", but it really is true that there's inherent entertainment value in what gets skipped. If the game worked slightly differently, this could have been another ACE run that takes a few random-looking actions in the first level then jumps to credits. Don't get me wrong, I still find those runs entertaining, but at this point it would be one of many. And certainly it would have been accepted without controversy in that case. Instead this run stands alone by improving over all those existing runs to as great a degree as they improved over the traditional full game runs that came before them. And it is precisely that lack of additional setup required that provides the extra factor of interest, and yes, entertainment, above all ACE runs that came before it. Now, while they may not have been written with a run anything like this in mind, I think it would still be informative to see what happens if we apply the voting guidelines here anyway:
Entertainment While the entertainment level of a TAS is somewhat subjective, there are a few principles that most of our players and viewers have agreed upon that make for runs with high entertainment. An entertaining run should: - Be fast-paced. If it takes five minutes for anything to happen, nobody will want to watch your run. Games with fast characters are well-suited for this.
This run achieves this goal better than any other in existence. Perfect by this metric.
- Be varied. Watching a character do little more than run to the right and jump occasionally is not entertaining. Generally, the more possibilities for what your character can do at any given time, and the more of them that are used, the better.
Ambiguous. No time passes, so variance over time isn't a meaningful concept. Low or middling by this metric depending on your interpretation.
- Do the unexpected. Abuse of glitches and otherwise causing the game to perform in unexpected ways makes for far more interesting gameplay.
I don't think a single person on the planet expected anything like this could be possible before ais's research into controller polling. Perfect by this metric.
- Have lots of action. The more that is going on at the same time the more impressive the result will be. Just don't overdo it to the point where it is impossible to follow the gameplay.
A lot is certainly going on at once, though it is in fact impossible to follow. (Hypothetically, it would be possible to make an encode with Quicksilver-vision, which is to say, displaying inputs at a constant rate and slowing down the video correspondingly when necessary. The video would still require explanation, but once you understood the general idea it you could then follow the video in a meaningful sense.) Based on the general philosophy suggested by the above guidelines, I'd consider 2.2 far out of line, let alone the 0.0 entertainment some have rated it as. Entertainment should never be measured in units of time. Finally, I'd like to appeal to variety. This site has countless runs of various sorts of traditional gameplay, as it certainly should. At this point, it even has a decent collection of "traditional ACE" runs, as incredible as it is that such a thing can even exist. There is nothing else like this, it seems to me that TASVideos could only benefit as a site from not excluding such a complete gamechanger.
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MrCheeze wrote:
Extremely disappointed to see this run - by my view, the most historic TAS ever - getting vaulted.
For years I have opposed this widespread notion that "vault" should be considered some kind of garbage dump where all the "boring" runs are shoved into simply out of pity, because we have to publish it if it conforms to the rules. That it's some kind of shame to be published in vault, as if your run is boring garbage that doesn't deserve any attention or prominence, and thus it's a huge disappointment if a run you like gets dumped there, as if it were some kind of ignominious stamp of shame. For years I have sporadically tried to suggest a change in attitude in this, to no avail. People still consider vault some kind of garbage dump for "boring" runs. If anything is a shame, that is. IMO it should be considered a great privilege to get a run published in vault. It means you have the any% or 100% world record for that game. It shouldn't be much different than getting to the top position in the speedrun.com leaderboard for a particular game. That's not a shame. It's an honor! Your run is the best in the world! Nobody else has a faster run than you. Why should that be shameful? It's not. That being said, if the distinction between Vault and Moon is entertainment, let's face it, this run doesn't really qualify for entertainment because it has no gameplay at all. A person cannot possibly be entertained by something that doesn't exist. The only entertainment that can possibly be derived from this run happens at the meta level (in other words, by studying the technical details of how the run was made, not really what the run looks like on screen).
If nothing else, the amount of entertainment per second of runtime is absolutely off the charts.
That's a rather useless, and if you allow me, nonsensical measurement stick. You cannot measure subjective feelings like that. Even if we were to humor this kind of measurement method, I would argue that the "entertainment per second" value of this run is zero, because of what I said above: It has nothing to be entertained by, during the run. If there's any entertainment to be had, it comes after the run, not during it, and thus you cannot measure "entertainment per second" for something that doesn't even happen during the run. You are completely free to disagree (and you will most certainly do so, and that's fine), but that's my opinion, and this whole "entertainment" thing is 100% subjective opinion anyway, so there's no one correct answer. My opinion is as valid as yours, because there is no "correct" opinion.
- Be fast-paced.
This run achieves this goal better than any other in existence. Perfect by this metric.
No, it doesn't, because nothing is happening on screen. A "fast pace" doesn't refer to the length of the run. It refers to things happening on screen at a fast pace. But nothing happens on screen here.
- Have lots of action.
A lot is certainly going on at once, though it is in fact impossible to follow.
Quite obviously "lots of action" is referring to things happening visually on screen. I doubt that the the "action" is referring to things happening behind the scenes, unseen to the viewer.
Finally, I'd like to appeal to variety. This site has countless runs of various sorts of traditional gameplay, as it certainly should. At this point, it even has a decent collection of "traditional ACE" runs, as incredible as it is that such a thing can even exist. There is nothing else like this, it seems to me that TASVideos could only benefit as a site from not excluding such a complete gamechanger.
Uh... Last time I checked, this run was accepted, not rejected. What do you mean "excluding"? Why do you consider being published in Vault as being "excluded" in some manner? You seem to consider Vault as synonymous with having been rejected.
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MrCheeze wrote:
Extremely disappointed to see this run - by my view, the most historic TAS ever - getting vaulted.
Tier decision is up to the community as a whole. That's just how democracy works. Insisting in displaying your opinion won't change others' opinion, especially for something subjective like feeling entertained. On the other hand, I don't see why it should be different, as it seems to me that the current approach for determining Tier works just fine for its intended purpose. Maybe it's not infallible, but in my opinion this specific movie didn't get a borderline response from the audience, so there is no chance that there was a judgment mistake.
Warp wrote:
You cannot measure subjective feelings like that.
I totally agree. And for this reason, I think that it would be useless to drag this discussion any further, as it's destined to turn into a basic clash of subjective opinions. If anyone does really care, then open a new tread for discussing about entertaining, Tiers, etc. I think that no one is going to gain anything from continuing to discuss about the judgment decision for this specific movie.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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