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Fortranm
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- SRAM-anchored movies will be separate branches. -- They will exist alongside clean branches even if there's significant content overlap, i.e a run that uses SRAM to skip cutscenes will be published alongside a clean run that does not.
The very first rule in the new guideline, as in "SRAM-anchored movies would never compete against 'clean' movies under Standard", might create some awkward scenarios. [1759] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls, inbounds" by Kriole in 24:56.10 [3216] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls" by Fz-Last, klmz, Pike in 17:06.41
Note: Starting from reset was necessary to use hard mode. However, doing so is normally not allowed — refer to the rules to see the reasons.
Both of these "full completion" movies start from SRAM to access the hardest difficulty, as pointed out in their (now outdated) footnotes. While they are both in Star class as of now, I suppose the former is actually Moon for having the "inbounds" additional requirement while the latter is Standard for being the, well, standard fastest full completion. Now, if we take this rule word by word, wouldn't that mean the former can compete (or be competed) against a Normal difficulty clean movie for having a Moon goal while the latter cannot because it has a Standard goal? (Note: Both of these movies also do take advantage of the fact that cutscenes can be skipped on replays compared to [1478] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Kriole in 20:58.62, but the fact that the Hard difficulty is not accessible without beating the game once means that's in a sense an inherent feature of it even if the difficulty choice is not done for that reason.) [2658] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "Julius mode, all bosses" by McBobX in 11:36.38 [2876] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "Julius mode, all bosses" by hellagels, KSeptuple, Pike in 11:52.03 Then there is the case of these two where the former, done on Normal difficulty, is obsoleted by the latter, done on Hard difficulty. This practice would still be perfectly in line with the new rules even if they might both be categorized under Standard with the new guideline. Why? Because they both require save anchor to begin with. In other words, while having runs done on different difficulties obsolete each other is a rather standard and reasonable practice, we now have situations where that cannot be done when a difficulty choice is locked at first because that requires save anchor yet the same can be done for unlockable alternative modes in the same game because they would all require save anchors anyway. With all these said, here is my proposal: What if we limit the "SRAM-anchored movies would never compete against 'clean' movies under Standard" clause to the Fastest Completion types of categories only, or at least do not apply them to the Full Completion categories? While they are all categories under Standard, full completion is ultimately not exactly about "beating the game as fast as possible" in the most literal sense and is arguably less "sensitive" to certain differences that would have caused relatively bigger impacts to fastest completion runs in many cases. Maybe that doesn't sound like a good justification for this specific proposal, but the general idea is that it's probably reasonable to allow obsoletions between save-anchored and "clean" movies for non-fastest completion categories based on how different they actually are instead of having a blanket "ban" on all obsoletions between movies with different save-anchor statuses under all of Standard.
Fortranm
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Is "new game+" the actual term used in-game? If not, would it be better to use "replay mode" instead (example: [2666] PSX Castlevania: Symphony of the Night "Replay Mode" by ForgoneMoose in 12:44.25) since there is no actual data carry over and the movie only utilizes a new feature that is independent of the specifics of the verification movie?
Fortranm
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Now that NG+ runs can be accepted in Standard, let's look at the game that coined this very term, Chrono Trigger. [943] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 09:07.12 and the older movies in the chain are all standard NG+ (any%) runs. I suppose these can be moved to a separate branch in Standard under the new rules. [1208] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 06:42.77 uses a set up that's only possible because of SRAM corruption and has questionable technical validity due to emulation from what I understand. Maybe this should be kept there it is.
Fortranm
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Fortranm wrote:
#5239: Fortranm's DS Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin "Sisters Mode" in 24:42.75 Does this quality under the new Standard rules by any chance?
Bringing this one up again in light of the SRAM related rule change.
Fortranm
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I had some thoughts regarding the categorization and listing of G&W games and maybe this is a good time to bring this up here now that #7631: Darkman425's GBA Game & Watch Gallery 4 "Zelda" in 07:19.33 is getting published. Game & Watch Some time ago, I made all 3 existing non-Gallery G&W entries use the naming format of "Game & Watch: [game name]" and put existing non-Gallery G&W submissions and publications under them regardless of what system or game they are played on and list those under Game Versions instead. The reasoning was that those different iterations are more or less meant to be near identical to each other and it's ultimately the same game that's being played on different consoles in different collections. Now, what's different about G&W Gallery games is that they have an overarching star collection system that eventually results in credit rolls, and that makes each of those included games that give stars similar in nature to individual games in games like Kirby Super Star and not so much a completely independent game. For that reason it generally makes more sense to put movies made on Galley games under those games themselves, be it a credit triggering movie of the Gallery game itself or a movie of one of those individual games that grant stars. (The acceptability of these movies is a different topic that is not inherently related to this one.) However, some of the Gallery games also include unlockable G&W games that do not give starts. In other words, they are effectively their own thing and not part of the overarching collection system that leads to a credit scroll in some way. In this sense, movies recorded with those games on Gallery titles aren't of partial game content of a bigger process. So, would it be reasonable to treat movies recorded on those individual games on G&W Gallery titles that do not contribute to the collection system the same way other G&W releases are treated when it comes to game categorization?
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Spikestuff wrote:
River City Girls Zero adds extended content to the base game if I'm not mistaken (yeah shock)
Does it though? That doesn't seem to be the case from what I gathered.
Spikestuff wrote:
Especially when the title was translated in a way to be a spinoff of the 2019 title.
It does feel a bit off, but maybe not completely different from what was done for EarthBound Beginnings. Further, the new release still kept the original Japanese subtitle in the logo, so perhaps we can do River City Girls Zero: Kunio-tachi no Banka?
Fortranm
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Glad to see a G&W Gallery credits triggering movie at least. Yes vote for entertainment. Do you plan to do any other G&W Gallery games next?
Fortranm
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I watched the v1 encode when it came out. Glad to see this finally being submitted. Yes vote.
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Fortranm
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I actually have started working on LIFTLUNACY on Version 2.1 and probably will do THE33ZONES, which got a new boss fight on Version 2.1, afterwards. Version 2.1 is the XBOX One release, and the NES rom itself is available for purchase online too. https://www.reddit.com/r/nes/comments/u8t4ze/battle_kid_fortress_of_peril_nes_out_again_on/
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This decision would affect the order the stages are played in the last 30% of the movie, although the contents of each stage wouldn’t change bar RNG manipulation. In-game level map: https://mario.wiki.gallery/images/3/3f/WL2_Treasure_Map.png Stage IDs and how they actually connect to each other: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/19356108/78606033-78854b00-7811-11ea-9d38-239099972cab.png Basically, a normal exit (vertical arrows on the graph) unlocks the "next" stage in the order of the internal stage IDs. 6 normally unintended unlocking (24-25, 29-30, 34-35, 39-40, 44-45, 49-50) can be done via OoB normal exit. All level completion that doesn't involve unlocking the "following" stage is triggered by a "secret exit", and this includes all 6 ending sequences in the game. The movie is currently at the point after Ch.4-5, where the 3 Final Chapters and Really Final Chapter are left. To finish the game in a more "conventional" manner, ending with the ending sequence from Really Final Chapter, we would use the following order: 20 -> 21 -> 22 -> 23 -> 24 -> 40 -> 41 -> 42 -> 43 -> 44 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 45) -> 45 -> 46 -> 47 -> 48 -> 49 (after this the "GREAT!" scene is played, which normally unlocks Really Final Chapter and jumps the cursor on the map selection there) -> 50 Or, to save a net total of around 90 frames by leaving the "GREAT!" scene out of the inputs, we could do this: 40 -> 41 -> 42 -> 43 -> 44 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 45) -> 45 -> 46 -> 47 -> 48 -> 49 (beating this via a glitched exit unlocks 50, Really Final Chapter, prematurely) -> 20 -> 21 -> 22 -> 23 -> 50 -> 24 (after this the "GREAT!" scene is played, and the movie would end on this screen) The ending mechanism in this game has been explained in my previous post. Stages 24, 29, 39, 44, 49, and 50 each has an ending sequence that would be played when the stage is beaten normally (or via an OoB secret exit). In a "100%, inbounds" movie, the first 5 ending sequences would be skipped because there is more to be done while the last would be allowed to play, both because it is the last one in the intended order and because, well, there is nothing left to do anyway. If we do the sequence break to play Really Final Chapter (50) early, its ending sequence would be skipped not because anything is preventing it to be played but because of the simple fact that there is one more stage to be done. In fact, the stage we would be doing the last, 24, has its own ending sequence, and this one would not be played because it's faster to finish the level via an OoB normal exit, which doesn't trigger the ending sequence, and there is no available OoB secret exit that was found, which could have triggered the ending sequence while still skipping the boss fight. The closest case among the published movies that I can think of is [2027] SNES Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest "102%" by Dooty, NxCy & Comicalflop in 1:21:31.88, which uses some method to complete the normally post-game ending first while triggering the intended first/any% ending at the very last to keep it out of the inputs. The movie jlun is working on would do something similar if the route with sequence break is done: it would end with a screen that signifies some sort of completion that normally wouldn't be the end of the movie to cut it out of the inputs while still finishing all gameplay contents supposed to be done. So maybe the real question here is, does the screen shown in the screenshots posted by jlun count as a completion screen of some sort that can be used as a valid movie ending point if all the intended contents of the category are otherwise done? Additionally, this movie is intended to be a new "100%" category in parallel to the existing "100%, inbounds" movie, which does have the 6th ending sequence of the game played out at the end. IMO, it is better to use the sequence break route in this "glitched 100%" movie to show off as much brokenness as possible and make it as different from the other 100% category as it can be, especially when, as mentioned in the previous post, the main benefit of ending the movie with an ending sequence in this case is more so to show a screen where 100% counters along with the best time record for the Really Final Chapter are displayed for formality, not that a specific ending sequence in this game is functionally unique.
Fortranm
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The situation is similar in Donkey Kong on Coleco and [3886] Coleco Donkey Kong by Fortranm in 00:44.19 just completes each unique level once. I think it might make more sense for this movie to just end after 1 -> 2 -> 1 -> 3 since completing the level with cage and keys doesn't seem to give much of a cutscene in this version.
Fortranm
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jlun2 wrote:
I would not be able to see the ending
To elaborate: We don't see it because a soft reset would be done to skip it and then proceed to the last level not done yet, not that it can't appear. Additionally, the ending sequence of The Really Final Chapter is technically just one of the 6 different ending sequences in the game and not functionally unique. Any of these endings can be triggered by beating the corresponding level again at any time. The main benefit of ending with an ending sequence in this case is more so to show a screen where 100% counters along with the best time record for the Final Stage are shown for formality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3K9-2pximc
Fortranm
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feos wrote:
Standard hosts the most traditional and legitimate goals, Moons hosts anything else that manages to entertain the audience, and Playground hosts the rest as long as it's well done. The main question we need to have a fundamental answer to is still "What makes something bad for Moons if the audience is entertained?"
Well, wasn't there even a proposal for Playground about allowing runs done on otherwise unacceptable emulators? It definitely does feel like a major purpose of Playground is to host movies that break the usual rules, especially the ones more on the technical side.
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feos wrote:
If a ROM hack unlocks a feature that's disabled in the game, it's an interesting thing to consider. If it simply adds something out of nowhere, it's not what my suggestions are advocating.
Something brought up in Thread #23375: TASVideos and cheats makes me wonder...
Natetheman223 wrote:
On the PC 1.0 version of the game, there is an item in the Secret Store only unlockable by beating the game on the hardest difficulty, without cheats (and yes, it knows). However, even following those rules, the item won't actually unlock - it can't be unlocked at all, apparently.
Is there any public documentation of this by any chance? I couldn't find any mention of it on TCRF. Does the AR code in question hack in the unobtainable item or do something else?
Fortranm
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feos wrote:
It's not ever going to become available because, say, with GC/Wii people simply use Gecko instead, and each Gecko code can include a whole bunch of things it changes, so binary patching of the ROM becomes redundant. The blanked ban is regarding how we would refuse to recognize the functional similarity between that and ROM hacking existing on older consoles.
The modding/hacking scene of New Super Mario Bros Wii. similar to that of SMB and SMW, is active or was active at some point from what I saw, just for example. While it's most likely true that games on consoles released from ~2005 onward generally have less hacks/mods than the ones on consoles that came before, this ROM hacking vs RAM hacking thing doesn't correlate with older vs newer consoles that much imo since older consoles probably have more variations of external cheat codes in general as well.
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feos wrote:
It's absolutely a database of codes per game.
Fortranm wrote:
...not a library/database of "end products". ...Having a list of external cheat codes where arbitrary combinations can be created from is exactly why "there are too many possibilities and it is up to the players what codes and how many to use".
In this sense it's still more similar to how rom hacking tutorials teach one how to make changes to an official game where the person later decides on the combination of changes to make that eventually result in a finished product, except there isn't a comparable "finished product" for ram hacking.
feos wrote:
So how do we solve the situation with consoles where ROM hacking per se is non-existent? Just blanket ban the whole thing from publications?
The phrasing "blanket ban the whole thing" sounds weird here. There is no banning on the rom hacking side; it's just that it's not available yet. This is like saying we are blanket banning movies of games on 9th gen consoles when there isn't a way of making one. :P For reasons brought up earlier, I do prefer to see movies involving RAM hacking stay in Playground for the foreseeable future when that is still a place to showcase the movies in some way on the site. Also, if part of the reason this discussion is happening right now is to figure out what to do with #7481: Natetheman223's GC Spider-Man "Green Goblin" in 20:47.65...
feos wrote:
If some feature doesn't have an in-game code but is otherwise something worth having in a TAS, unlocking it using an external code feels justified at least for Moons, just like we allow unlocking content with in-game codes.
Natetheman223 wrote:
This skin is pretty snazzy and I wanted to show it off.
Natetheman223 wrote:
I would prefer this not get Playground'd but if worst comes to worst I can redo it with the default skin and verification movie. This is intended to obsolete [4411] GC Spider-Man "Green Goblin" by Natetheman223 in 23:20.28.
To me it sounds like the otherwise unavailable feature is just a skin. If that's the case, allowing external cheat codes for this is almost on par with allowing purely cosmetic hacks even if we do try to treat ram hacking and rom hacking in a similar way.
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feos wrote:
https://gamehacking.org/
That seems more like a collection of guides on how to hack the rom/ram, not a library/database of "end products". Databases of rom hacks are functionally similar to a list of officially licensed games that they set up a canon of game versions to choose from. Having a list of external cheat codes where arbitrary combinations can be created from is exactly why "there are too many possibilities and it is up to the players what codes and how many to use". This makes the situations surrounding rom hacking and ram hacking too different imo.
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While I support loosening the restrictions on in-game codes in general, I think we should be very careful about allowing external codes for anything outside Playground. There is a clear line between utilizing what's provided by the game itself and modifying it IMO.
scrimpeh wrote:
If people like speedrunning some category that involves external or internal codes, and people want to see a TAS of that, I think that TAS should also have a place on TASvideos.
I see less of a reason to try to fit everything in Standard and Moon when Playground is already a thing, really. If anything, wouldn't allowing things like real time RAM modification somewhat take away from the purpose of Playground in the first place?
feos wrote:
But there's an argument that on principle, they are the same thing as ROM hacks, the latter being the approved way of game modifications, so should be used instead.
ROM modification and RAM modification might be similar to an extent in a metaphysical sense, but is there really a proper way to translate these rules regarding homebrews and hacks to apply for external cheat code usage in practice?
We allow unofficial games, such as bootlegs, prototypes and ROM hacks. However, these games are judged just as much as their TASes: * Unofficial games need to meet a minimum standard of game quality. They should be complete and original. * Bootleg games must not be direct clones of a licensed game on the same console. Unlicensed ports with unique gameplay, such as demakes, are allowed. * Prototypes are only allowed if gameplay is significantly different to the release version, or if there is no release version at all. ROM hacks must not be overly obscure. If a hack is known to [https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/GoodTools|GoodTools], [https://www.romhacking.net/|ROMhacking.net], [https://www.smwcentral.net/|SMW Central], or some other well-known database, that usually means its quality is decent and it won't be completely lost in the future.
As others have pointed out, "there are too many possibilities and it is up to the players what codes and how many to use". The requirement for a hack to be featured on a well-known database effectively sets up canons and categories for the specifics of modifications done to the original game and makes it easy to track them. I doubt something similar can be done for external cheat code usage / RAM modification.
feos wrote:
External codes that modify the game are judged as unofficial games if modifications are severe enough. Otherwise, external codes are allowed for Moons only if they unlock gameplay or content that in-game codes can't access.
Also, how would this fit into the game system on the site?
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there's an A and a B with the latter being harder
"Calculate B" is the appropriate branch name because it's a separate game mode.
The other publications for the series on NES don't use the difficulty choice "Game B" as a branch name though. [1352] NES Donkey Kong by Phil in 01:08.67 [3926] NES Donkey Kong Jr. by Aglar, Aqfaq, Ferret Warlord, Jigwally in 01:03.84 [2175] NES Donkey Kong 3 by MESHUGGAH in 00:56.54
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I did but that has little to do with this proposal. That was about the differences between the first game and the second game in the series, not comparing different ports and localization of the first game.
Fortranm
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Making a new post for this rewire request because it's slightly less ordinary. Quoting myself from Post #511329 and Post #511406:
But then there is the question of whether the release of the first game on Genesis (localized as Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine) is similar enough to the SNES version for cross obsoletion, maybe. Kirby's Avalanche and Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machin have the same number of stages as we see in the movies. I'm not sure if this counts as apparently identical gameplay. Of course, this is on the basis of them being localizations of releases of the same base game.
Either Kirby's Avalanche or Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine should be renamed to just Puyo Puyo with the other one rewired to it. It might even be reasonable to make them cross-obsolete each other since they are ports of the same base game reskinned to different themes only for localization purposes.
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IBM PC (MS-DOS / Windows / Linux, including DOOM) - ([Movies-DOS-DOOM-Windows-Linux-Standard|Standard]) ([Movies-DOS-DOOM-Windows-Linux-Stars|Stars]) ([Movies-DOS-DOOM-Windows-Linux-Moons|Moons]) ([Movies-DOS-DOOM-Windows-Linux|All])
Merged the pages of DOS, Windows, and Linux into IBM PC now that it has been coined as a term on the forum.
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Memory wrote:
I'm leaning towards keeping Rainbow Edition separate since it's unofficial, however.
We have "Super Duper Mario Bros. (Unapproved Graphics Hack)" listed in Super Mario Bros. though.