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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
I know the TAS in this submission is actually doing L+R inputs on the same frame, while the one I've pointed out makes extensive use of subframes inputs. My question is, if it would be possible to achieve the same results of L+R with very fast subframe inputs.
That post says that it would depend on the hardware. Asynchronous circuits are an entirely different thing than what we're dealing with here. I can't say if such implementations have ever been used for gaming consoles, but I'm pretty sure none of our traditional consoles was asynchronous. So yeah, the input latch process remains more or less the same and matches AnS's main point.
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Bobo the King wrote:
Well, maybe you could waggle the joystick back and forth quickly enough that it interprets it as left+right, but I'll take a "I'll believe it when I see it" standpoint.
That's not how it works: Post #346153.
Overall, the ruling to allow anything that's digitally possible has been there forever. SNES does not have the buttons for the last 4 bits used in SMB ACE. But we allow it, because it just requires a different controller, and you'll be able to send all the bits you wish, all the bits the game can process.
Moreover, look at the TASbot. It does press LR, even all directions at once. The game reacts to that the way it does in an emulator. The key is, we plug directly to the controller port, ignoring the controller limitations completely. If arcade cabinets allowed changing the controller, we'd use that. But guess what? Arcade games are just electronic circuits, you plug to their ports and voila, you send any data you want.
Spikestuff wrote:
They're not analog controls, this is a stick, represented by an analog movement.
The system is being modified in a way where it's literally abusing everything that's not meant to be physically possible.
On directional input, it is possible to do U/D and L/R input, there shouldn't be a debate for that, but for something analog there is no bloody way doing that without ripping out the machine and getting into the inside, which is what this TAS is doing.
feos wrote:
There's a difference between analog input and directional input.
Can I read a proof that this particular arcade machine uses analog processing internally for this stick?
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fsvgm777 wrote:
feos wrote:
It's physically impossible if you're standing before an unmodified cabinet. But it's digitally possible to send those inputs, and it's possible for the game to process them.
You're missing the point. This is an unmodified arcade cabinet of the game (ignore the condition). On a SNES controller, it is possible with a ton of twiddling to actually input L+R/U+D. On an arcade cabinet, with a joystick, as Spikestuff pointed out, it's literally impossible unless you want to completely break the joystick (and the cabinet) apart. Similarly, you can't input L+R/U+D on an N64 joystick or basically any joystick.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Pressing Down, Right, and Left on the joystick simultaneously
So what you're saying is something completely impossible on an Arcade Machine was used and abused.
Now for console games L+R/U+D is possible, insane and not recommended, for Arcade with a stick the max you can do is any diagonal movement.
This leaves salt in my mouth for this TAS knowing that the primary movement is something that's not even possible.
It's physically impossible if you're standing before an unmodified cabinet. But it's digitally possible to send those inputs, and it's possible for the game to process them. We're not TASing physical cabinets, we're TASing digital entities, spherical cows in a vacuum: games in abstraction.
For consoles like SNES, we're accepting L+R not because it's physically possible, but because it's only physically impossible on an official controller that you don't try to overpower. Same with non-existent buttons: the data can be sent (for instance, with a SNES mouse) and processed, therefore it's digitally legit.
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Good job, feos, you wrote an angry note about checking player entries every time, and forgot to give a fuck when you were the one to check it.
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Unless accuracy becomes what makes them desync, right?
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What does the Free Play switch do here?
EDIT: Weird, I have the dip switch off, but the movie sets the free play mode by itself.
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Danfun64 wrote:
feos wrote:
We use internal replay format for Doom, since it can be tested against original Doom on a PC. And such runs would still be obsoleted by fully emulated DOS, since it won't have the limitations and downsides of the internal replay system.
How exactly would fully emulating DOS and running doom in that benefit Doom TASing compared to the internal replay system?
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Also, lsnes works on linux, and bizhawk does not at all. Makes sense, as Ilari is a linux guy.
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Amaraticando wrote:
The new Waterbox concept might have fixed most problem with bsnes core, but it's yet to be verified whether both emulators produce identical outputs with the same input.
Waterbox doesn't touch input, only savestates, if I get it right.
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Monetization, aside from all else, introduces an extra layer of problems for others, because youtube starts thinking that ALL super mario bros content macially starts belonging so some Marty85949374, AlbinoBlackSheep, LOLAHAHA, or similiry irrelevant youtuber. So every time someone uploads and encode of an SMB tas, they get a copyright claim from these irrelevant people. Such guys can be convinced to unmonetize such videos, preventing endless false claims.
But sometimes they won't care. I made a TAS of 1p Battletoads and uploaded it to my channel. I got a copyright claim from some channel that contained a shitty remix of stage 2 music. I declined it and sent them that were are basing on Fair Use when we distribute TAS encodes, but most importantly, they themselves has stolen Rare's and Nintendo's properly and slapped random drum samples on top, now accusing everybody in infringing they copyright. This is bullshit. You know what they did? They just refused my complaints and restored the claim. Further actions required giving google my personal info, so I didn't undertake them. Now the claim looks canceled.
Finally, monetization of TASes reduces the clarity of Fair Use:
http://tasvideos.org/Nach/FairUse.htmldokurokun wrote:
Hi, I'm sorry if this is not appropriate to ask here. I would like to know is there any additional restriction rule for uploading TAS videos from this site to my channel? Or I'm actually not allowed to do that?
If I'm allowed to upload videos to my channel, any specific rules I have to follow besides properly credited the author and this site? What about monetization?
Thanks for answering my question.
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Thanks, I added all 3. And also asked TaoTao if they could update the approved movies section. If anyone else wants to update something, please do!
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I missed a few splits entirely. Here, I compressed the file a bit while also trying to fix the splits. HD kept freezing my virtualdub, so I refused to fix it.
https://yadi.sk/d/S5WslEs33S6AnM
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[19:15]    Nach          GPLv3 tries to redefine more English than GPLv2. Hence it appears GPLv3 is actually weaker in most cases
[19:15]Â Â Â Â ais523Â Â Â Â Â Â Â true: there are a few other really major reasons, e.g. GPLv3 is compatible with many more non-copyleft open source licenses than GPLv2 is
[19:16]Â Â Â Â ais523Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Nach: I think the reason for redefining words is to make the license more consistent across jurisdictions
[19:16]Â Â Â Â ais523Â Â Â Â Â Â Â it might be weaker in the US but more likely to hold elsewhere
[19:16]    Nach          ais523: I think it's for brainwashing, er, marketing
[19:18]    Nach          If you ever become a defendant in a GPL case, bring in experts witnesses from oxford and webster, and demolish the entire foundation of the GPL as nonsensical
[19:19]Â Â Â Â ais523Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I don't plan to violate either the letter or spirit of the GPL
[19:20]    Warepire   Nach: A battle royale of linguistics? Sounds exciting.
[19:21]    Nach          Warepire: the whole GPL rests upon you accepting their redefinition of English. Refuse to accept it!
[19:21]    Warepire   I don't think I want to try just for laughs though.
[19:21]    Nach          Warepire: a key is keeping a straight face throughout
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Sour wrote:
Thanks for the link - I'll take a look at FCEUX's docs before getting started on a tas editor.
Note, that while being quite complicated, taseditor has no workflow bugs. Literally. With just my tests and AnS's development, we perfected it so much, that if one tries to implement some feature of it with the clean room approach. they will get trapped in design loopholes AnS has already resolved years ago. Bizhawk's tastudio, while being designed for multiplatform and having some more features, suffers a few design mistakes that would have been avoided, if existing experience was studied better.
Sour wrote:
I'm relatively close to being finished with the input rework, actually.
I think you remember who should be the main tester :)
Sour wrote:
As for sub-frame input, at the moment I've moved to frame input (as opposed to before where the input was polled whenever the NES game asked for it). But it would be relatively simple to make the process repeat itself multiple times per frame, at a configurable scanline interval (e.g every 65 scanlines for 4 inputs per frame, etc). This wouldn't be all that useful for regular gameplay (since each frame is emulated in a couple of milliseconds and then the cpu sleeps until the next frame), but would allow for more flexibility TAS-wise.
lsnes, the first tas emulator to provide subframe input, allows to specify what tick you want some input at. But that's for the Reset button, which can literally interrupt anything. We don't need that for the NES, only poll-based controller input. My idea for fceux back what I thought I had time for it, was to allow poll advance in addition to frame advance, and if some presses are recorder for pull #N, specify that number in the movie somehow.
fceux manual wrote:
|commands|port0|port1|port2|
Field commands is a variable length decimal integer which is interpreted as a bit field corresponding to miscellaneous input states which are valid at the start of the frame. Current values for this are:
1 = Soft Reset
2 = Hard Reset (Power)
4 = FDS Disk Insert
8 = FDS Disk Select
16 = VS Insert Coin
My idea was to use yet another flag (32) to indicate pull-based input, and then at the end of the line append the poll number that input should be read at.
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Sour wrote:
After that, I still need to make some sort of TAS editor, but that may still take a while (I personally haven't ever used one and don't really know what features people want/need from one)
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General rules on the player entrieshttp://tasvideos.org/PublisherGuidelines.html#GeneralRulesOnTheEntries
We're currently in the process of renaming all player entries to meet this ruling. It's a lot of work, because no consistency was applied ever, and there's a ton of entries.
Publishers, always follow these rules, don't let it become a bigger mess!
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Some thoughts regarding the definition. Sure, Major skip glitch is also heavy abuse of glitches. But the meaning we've been giving it when the movie class was created is way more specific.
Back then, there has been a lot of runs branched "glitched", which would exactly cut the time dramatically, compared to the fastest runs without such glitches. There wasn't any special movie class for them. We were getting more and more of such runs and attempted to organize them better. And, importantly, to provide a way to group them, to observe by that group alone. Typical behavior of a tag.
Due to collapse of the branching system that I mentioned, caused by the lack of sane policies, we had to invent terms that would reduce the ambiguity and work long-term. This is what is there now. But it was still imperfect, because some definitions weren't documented.
Dropping a tag a few people don't want to try to define doesn't resolve any problems at all, and doesn't improve the site. The site has tags/movie classes that allow to sort by some parameter one is interested in. Some parameters can be parts of others, or overlap differently, but the goal is not just to mark something, but also to make that mark useful for site navigation and content consumption.
So this is what we've been putting into the term. Major skip glitch - a glitch that allows to deny the internal game mechanics entirely and to beat the game dramatically faster than without that glitch. That approach was already a thing, we just structured it. Looking at the most canonical examples like
[2926] SNES Super Mario World "game end glitch" by BrunoVisnadi, Amaraticando, Masterjun in 00:41.81[3424] SNES Super Metroid "game end glitch" by Sniq, total, Aran Jaeger in 07:09.68
one can get the idea what is meant by this, regarding amounts of time saved and regarding fundamental nature of the glitches.
We do not have problems with the tag itself. Literally, nothing that would lead to collapse on a long run. Just lack of definition that would make tag use more consistent and grounded. So I repeat, dropping the tag doesn't solve any problems, because there aren't any. Instead it takes away a factor we're grouping movies by.
If you guys see nothing common between these, you're being ignorant. If you don't see any difference betweenthese, you're being ignorant.
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The tags (= categories = movie classes) are there to indicate which runs have similar qualities. You're not making the system easier to search through if you just drop some tags.
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Guys are you serious? You're telling me the complete collapse of the branching system due to unapproved mass renaming, as well as this whole thread, which caused all site staff members to unite their mental efforts and come up with a solid approach, happened over something completely meaningless?
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I think naming game breaking glitches in branches started with this post:
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=374098#374098
The point is to describe what the glitch achieves: instant game end, skipping most of the game but not to its end, SRAM corruption, are the most common ones. If the effect of the glitch can't be easily abstracted and described with the above terms, we invent new ones.
Demo glitch sounds fine to me and is easily definable, but it can actually result in all kinds of events, with each of them already having naming standards. The question is, should we revise them and insist of mentioning the setup conditions of the glitch instead of its results? I dunno. SRAM glitch mentions conditions too.
tl;dr: I don't object, "demo glitch" sounds good, we just need an agreement.
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Bravo.
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