(Link to video)

Attributes

  • Forgoes major game breaking glitches
  • Forgoes out of bounds
  • Aims for lowest real time / frame count
  • Abuses minor glitches and exploits
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Manipulates luck
  • Speed-Entertainment tradeoffs

Terminology

  • Energy Tank = E-Tank
  • Reserve Tank = R-Tank
  • Power Bomb = PB
  • Gravity Suit = Grav
  • Speed Booster = Speed
  • Charge Beam = Charge
  • Ice Beam = Ice
  • Wave Beam = Wave
  • Hi-Jump Boots = HJB
  • Mother Brain = MB
  • Corner Boost = C-Boost
  • Damage Boost = D-Boost
  • Shinespark = Spark
  • Crystal Flash = CF
  • RNG = Random Number Generation

Tools Used


Overview

This is a new classic Any% TAS of Super Metroid. It beats both the real time and game time of the previous Any% records by Taco & Kriole (2009) and Saturn (2011). The real time improvement is 3522 frames (58.7 seconds) whereas the game time improvement is 2 seconds, resulting in a real time of 37:39.1 and a game time of 22:36.
Many fresh optimizations were found during this run, and the run is the first to include exploits found last year such as Draygon underflow to obtain over 65k Missiles / Supers, and "bowling skip" to skip the cutscene involving the Chozo statue in Wrecked Ship before Grav.
As was the case with 13%, this was created on Lsnes, a more accurate emulator compared to snes9x v1.43 which the previous runs were created on. As a result, I lose 2-3 frames per door transition and have more lag to deal with in comparison.

Route Outline

For the purpose of performing Draygon underflow, the best boss order ended up being Phantoon -> Draygon -> Ridley -> Kraid, an order not seen before in runs. A handful of major items were able to be skipped as a result, including ones previously-thought-mandatory such as Wave and even Charge.
Similar to 13%, I grab the Brinstar R-Tank as it is required for performing bowling skip, and it serves as a replacement to one E-Tank for surviving MB's rainbow beam. The ammo choices before Wrecked Ship are the standard and obvious ones. I need two packs of each ammo type in order to perform underflow later.

Details & Improvements Per Area

Ceres -> Blue Brinstar

The same improvements that were recently made to the Any% ACE run exist here - the 1 frame improvement to the tile room of Ceres escape and the 4 frame improvement to the Construction Zone revisit.
Although not an improvement, I found a way to fall down the right side of Parlor that matches the speed of the standard left side descent.

Awakened Crateria

By having one of the rocks produced by a Skree strike Samus, thus causing Samus to blink, 1 frame of lag was removed in the door to Flyway. In this case, even though the Skree produces rocks both when it perishes and when it burrows, I had to slay it on a specific frame before it burrowed in order for one of its rocks to strike Samus in a location where c-boosts would not be missed.
Upon returning to Parlor after Bomb Torizo, the "ball pump" technique was applied to the Alcatraz tunnel and saved 2 frames, and I was able to open the door to Terminator a frame earlier.
The last pirate in Green Pirate Shaft was disposed of in order to save 20 energy.
Two Kago bugs were farmed right before the Brinstar elevator. It's surprising that this option went unnoticed for all these years, considering it only cost 12 frames to perform.

Green & Pink Brinstar

Applied a new method for collecting the R-Tank by farming enough ammo in the Main Shaft to open both red doors in succession.
A few enemies were farmed along the way to Red Brinstar to afford performing the bowling skip later.

Red Brinstar

The first d-boost in Hellway was optimized just enough to gain previously-thought-impossible subpixels, and barely reach the right door a frame earlier.
A frame was saved by perfectly centering the door leading to the first PB pack, and two more were saved by reaching it 2 frames earlier.
More impossible subpixels were obtained by optimizing the jump and d-boost right after collecting the first PB pack, thus saving a frame.

Wrecked Ship

Phantoon was dispatched 1-2 frames faster than the published Any% runs, all the while collecting more drops during the fight.
Phantoon's drops were in much more favorable locations than in previous runs, saving a whopping ~70 frames.
In the Attic, some lag was reduced during the PB explosion, and 1-2 frames were saved by performing a lower jump while double-striking the Kihunter and Atomic from below.
Slopekiller was performed above the West Ocean, but the result was equal in speed. Ball pumping in those tunnels saved 2 frames, its usual amount.
Despite all the farming and pausing involved to perform it, bowling skip saved 8-10 real time seconds. The third pause was performed to return brightness to the screen so that the audience could witness it in action (since otherwise, brightness would not have returned until obtaining Grav), which is the primary speed-entertainment trade-off of this run, costing 2-3 seconds.

Norfair

The Ice path was approached more efficiently by falling off of the elevator's edge, shooting the door open earlier, and centering the door.
A few frames were saved in the Ice section compared to Saturn's 14% Ice run.

Maridia

Better room optimizations than previous runs led to a handful of frames being saved.

Norfair

Clever strategies such as c-boosting / walljumping off of frozen enemies were implemented to save frames.

Lower Norfair

Even more spark strategies than before were used here - a spark was performed in every room from Pillars to Kihunter staircase, and a spark was performed after the steel pirates encounter to fly all the way to Ridley's Gadora instead of dealing with the enemies and acid.

Norfair Escape

The spark through the exit pillars and knockback from the Multiviola to reach the ledge barely worked without HJB.

Kraid's Lair

It turns out that it's faster to use a regular bomb instead of a PB in the first room by 2-3 frames, an improvement over Taco's Any% WIP in that regard.
Kraid's lag was reduced majorly by firing Missiles at the rocks from point-blank range, resulting in a fight that is 20-30 frames faster than the one in my 13% run.

To Tourian

The spark suit gained at Kraid was used to reach the platform below the door, high above Mt. Everest.

Tourian

All (or almost all?) of the rooms were improved compared to previous runs.
Skipping the Super Metroid with a spark was barely able to work in these conditions (Speed, no HJB, no Wave). Unfortunately, this skip was still 13 frames slower than 13%'s method (coincidental numbers), but was the only option given the conditions.

Escape

2 frames were saved compared to my 13% run.

Additional

As you would expect, the never-ending ammo obtained through Draygon underflow saved time throughout the remainder of the run.

New Techniques

Bowling Skip

By allowing the R-Tank to trigger automatically while in the Chozo statue's grasp, Samus will be freed and allowed to move freely during the cutscene (after being teleported backwards a few times).

Maridia Green Gate Mock Clip

This gate is possible to open by mockballing into a frozen enemy at low height by using the peak momentum value (3.49152) - which is present for only 1 frame - combined with a dash value of at least 1.20480. Not only is this route faster, but also conserves a Super Missile, since that is what green gates normally require.

Botwoon Skip

What happens if the game has to decide whether Samus should collide with a wall or a frozen enemy? Surprise! The frozen enemy has priority, making it possible to clip inside solid objects. Properly positioning the Zoas for performing this skip is much more difficult with only Ice.

Draygon Underflow

The game uses the same memory address for reducing ammo via CF as it does for releasing Samus from Draygon's grasp via the directional pad. Therefore, through proper spamming of directional pad inputs upon initiating a CF while in Draygon's grasp, ammunition amounts underflow, and a spark suit is gained.

Boomerang C-Boost

Same as boomerang ledgegrab, except performed while c-boosting. Not sure if this saved frames anywhere.

Boomerang D-Boost

Same as boomerang ledgegrab, except performed right before making contact with a damage source. This causes the d-boost's momentum to begin from 1.57344 (or 1.61440 if Samus had a dash value of 0.04096 prior to the d-boost) instead of the usual 1.16384 (non-spinjump) or 1.24576 (spinjump). This technique saved a frame when Samus was struck by the Rinka in the last Metroid room in Tourian.

Missing Echoes

It sometimes reduces lag to prevent Samus from gaining speed echoes. (see Speed Booster Hall and Tourian Escape Room 3)

Known & Potential Improvements

When the run was ~80% complete, Reeve and I figured out that, despite the utilization of bowling skip, Draygon underflow, et cetera, a KRDP route would still be faster than this route, although the approximate amount by which it would be faster is currently unknown.
That being said, the route showcased in this run has very little potential improvement, but I'll try to list a few:
  • Somehow manipulating Kihunters in Lower Norfair into better positions so that rolling underneath them is not necessary?
  • MB2's rainbow had a delay of 45 frames, which I'm satisfied with since I think it's lower than the delay in all currently-published runs, but it could be lower.
  • It might be possible to improve steam RNG during Tourian escape by 5-10 frames if a brute force search was performed for some time (potentially weeks).

Special Thanks

Thanks to EternisedDragon, Overfiend, Reeve, Taco, Total, previous TASers, and the speedrunning community.

feos: As I promised 3 years ago, the option to obsolete the "in-game time" run is now available. That has already happened when [1368] SNES Super Metroid by Taco, Kriole in 38:41.52 obsoleted [1075] SNES Super Metroid "ingame time" by Cpadolf in 41:02.40 by simply beating it by the IGT, and that's the case now again. The community generally approves of that scenario as well, so there's no issue with this.
Some people feel uneasy about the new glitch this run uses though: the underflow glitch that grants you a ridiculous amount of ammo. The previous runs had to manage that resource heavily, that being a part of the challenge, and now it's taken away after the point when the glitch is performed. So some expressed the wish to have "underflow glitch" and "no underflow glitch" as separate branches instead of "real time" and "in-game time". But that doesn't seem to be justified at all, firstly, because it's not that common an impression, secondly, due to lack of real arguments advocating such decision.
When two runs are published alongside each other, they should have significant difference that can be easily seen and clearly defined/explained, and the percentage of content overlap between them should be minimal. None of that has been proven to be true for "underflowed" and "underflowless" branches, as the only serious con is that the former feels less entertaining in that exact aspect of ammo management, and it's still very entertaining on its own. All the other content is conceptually the same: one has to beat the game ASAP without game breaking glitches, no other restrictions set. Moreover, as pointed out by the author: "Majority of the time saved comes from significantly better optimization and especially realtime optimization. Underflow was just berry on top of the cake." It sums up the lack of conceptual difference between these 2 suggested branches, since the greatest difference right now is in time saved due to things unrelated to "underflow".
So while this run has so much content overlap with the IGT one, it has just as much content overlap with the previous "no major glitches" branch. And in a situation when there are permanently so many branches of Super Metroid published alongside each other (which by itself isn't bad, as I said already in the thread), it becomes harder and harder to clearly differentiate between branches, so cross-branch obsoletion becomes unavoidable.
Another point that was brought up, aside from "feeling less challenging", was "feeling like a GT code". It sounds silly when you look at the technical details, but I'll explain our official take. It doesn't matter how many "cheap" resources a certain glitch can grant you. It only matters which way you access them. If you access them by entering a cheat code, you get rejected. If you access them by performing some actions that were proven to be a debug mode combination, you get rejected. If you glitch the game and enter the debug mode by corrupting memory, it's legit. This run doesn't even enter the debug mode of any kind, it just glitches a certain counter, that's all. Comparison to GT code is also invalid.
Finally, there's an argument that if "underflow" is allowed here now, all other branches will automatically demand it too, as well as the applicable Super Metroid hacks. While this seems to be true, as separating the "underflow" category doesn't look justified, I won't be setting any policies here, because the final decision can only be made when such a run is submitted and reviewed by the users and the judge.
Spikestuff: Publishi- ...dual obsoletion... Mother Brain.

Joined: 10/8/2014
Posts: 3
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Wow, this run is dope. Thanks for the entertainment!! It would be really really awesome if you did an audio commentary video too.
Kung_Knut
He/Him
Joined: 8/10/2016
Posts: 85
Location: Sweden
Loved the run, very entertaining throughout. Somehow the run seemed so tight, like you only rushed straight to each boss without detours. I especially enjoyed Maridia, which I usually find a bit boring in SM runs. It is my humble opinion that the ammo glitch should be allowed in a 100% run as well, as long as all 100 items are collected the intended way anyway. (For low%, however, I think it kind of conflicts with the purpose of the branch.) Also, how did you do shinesparks before collecting the speed booster?
Joined: 8/5/2015
Posts: 29
Kung Knut wrote:
Also, how did you do shinesparks before collecting the speed booster?
Whenever a Crystal Flash is interrupted, it gifts Samus with a shinespark suit. The Crystal Flash is able to be interrupted during Draygon's grab. In this case, Draygon will release Samus after 60 directional pad inputs have occurred, which is also related to why underflow can occur here. Sniq conveniently forces this to occur right before any Power Bombs would've been depleted by the Crystal Flash. With the shinespark in tow, Sniq can finish off Draygon with it. When Draygon perishes, it forces Samus into a standing pose. Therefore, if Samus is shinesparking and has yet to crash when Draygon perishes, Samus will be forced out of her shinespark into a standing pose, granting her a blue suit. Sniq then uses said blue suit to create another shinespark suit by using the broken turret electricity and abusing how the knockback timer functions. Shinespark suit saves frames over blue suit because Samus is able to run while maintaining it - if Samus with a blue suit runs for even a single frame, the blue suit will be lost. Obviously, running is fast, so shinespark suit is preferred, even if it is for the very short horizontal distances covered before its use.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US
Initially Sniq was gonna skip Speedbooster entirely and spark suit all over the place but, it was faster to collect Speedbooster. It would have been really cool though, sad it wasn't faster overall. It would have had even more people asking WTF. Curious to see what's next on the chopping block for Sniq.
My name is 4N6/Forensics.
Player (209)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
Nice and thoroughly optimized run, with a couple of cool new strategies. Also a clever Maridia approach which seems perfect for this runs conditions to save important ammo for Draygon, though I doubt it would be of use in runs that have Gravity Suit + SpeedBooster, mainly due to the missing pre-Draygon shinespark. All in all this is a yes vote for excellent work on a run that demonstrates the ammo-glitch and its unique route very well. It shouldn't be compared to traditional any% runs though IMO, due to getting items out of nowhere similarly like in a GT-Code run, which isn't really legit and what the classic any% category is all about in SM.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
McBobX wrote:
Zowayix wrote:
It can't be ACE, because once the player has ACE access they can always beat the game instantly.
But it gives a large amount of missiles and super missiles (maybe infinite) like Space/Time glitch in a GT code run. Anyway, though it does not provide any warping things or such that skips something. Absolutely Yes vote.
It's just a large amount. I'm not familiar with the exact details, but basically the glitch causes the Crystal Flash to continue to decrease your missiles/super missiles "below zero". Since the numbers used to represent how much ammo you have is an unsigned number, instead of going negative, these counts go to very large positive numbers. It's not ACE; it's just an overflow glitch. ACE allows you to do anything (it's Arbitrary Code Execution after all), this is just a specific glitch.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
My opinion is that a negative overflow on the ammo capacity should be allowed in all categories but low%. The whole point of low% is operating on minimal resources. The point of any% isn't, though; you can do anything there.
dan
He/Him
Joined: 9/23/2016
Posts: 25
Yes vote from me. I thought I kept up with Super Metroid well enough that I would have a good idea what Sniq's "crazy route" was going to be, but I was caught completely off guard and ended up thinking to myself "Hacks! Lies!"
Active player (432)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
All in all, I feel uneven about as far as I could tell having unlimited amount of ammunition. For lack of better word, it feels like cheating. In this community, we explore unknown territories like back when Masterjun blew up the internet with his ace runs. I don't reminisce we have seen other type of tases exploring games like this. I bet I will get bombarded with links showing we have loads of runs similar to this :) Anyway, I truly appreciate the effort and time spent on this run but in the end, I feel the premise is not the same as the previous any% and thus cannot obsolete current any%. I have to vote no.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Skilled player (1320)
Joined: 6/27/2014
Posts: 87
Location: Finland
AngerFist wrote:
All in all, I feel uneven about as far as I could tell having unlimited amount of ammunition. For lack of better word, it feels like cheating. In this community, we explore unknown territories like back when Masterjun blew up the internet with his ace runs. I don't reminisce we have seen other type of tases exploring games like this. I bet I will get bombarded with links showing we have loads of runs similar to this :) Anyway, I truly appreciate the effort and time spent on this run but in the end, I feel the premise is not the same as the previous any% and thus cannot obsolete current any%. I have to vote no.
Dear Angerfist, the topic asks if the run is entertaining or not, not if it should be published or replace other tases.
Active player (432)
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Lol I know :) I thought I raised valid concerns. Lord knows how old that question is btw :) Im just a lurker, disregard me.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Player (88)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1057
Location: United States
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
Question to Hero of the Day and Reeve, do you guys have any interest is helping Sniq plan a 100% route?
I personally don't think the underflow trick should be allowed in any of the currently published runs. It feels like a form of cheating, similar to the GT code. Additionally, I also don't happen to think there is an application for the trick in the 100% run anyway. Barring this trick, the currently used 100% route is still be best. The only changes would be extremely small, to re-optimize the route for real-time, if that is the goal. Of course I would be very willing to help out with those small types of route planning. On another note, if this run is published, I would hope it goes under a different category. The any% category purposefully foregoes serious game breaks, as allowing them would inevitably result in a super short run and eventual collision with the ACE route. Remember we had an any% run that OOB into tourian? Should that have become the default any% run? Should space time be allowed? This glitch really opens pandora's box. I say keep the glitches out of the normal runs.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Aran_Jaeger
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Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Barring this trick, the currently used 100% route is still be best. The only changes would be extremely small, to re-optimize the route for real-time, if that is the goal.
I don't think a fixed 100% (real-time) route has been confirmed in any way (may it be via movie files, existing TASes, or time-comparisons/-estimates) so far. There is so many directions available for the run to spread at around early to mid game, so there is still a lot of work to do.
Of course I would be very willing to help out with those small types of route planning.
In that case, for coordination and management reasons, it probably would be best to discuss and keep track of tasks and progress on Discord where most people relevant to 100% TAS routing/tests are located already.
Also, Aran;Jaeger/EternisedDragon promised me to post here a list of hacks the underflow may affect routes for.
It is about time to respond to this, so the following is on the topic of the relevance of the underflow on SM hack TASes: Now I could say I quickly made a list of all SM hacks for this purpose and looked through all of them using the game's editor to check through the rooms in order to estimate and compare the value of hacks for TASing purposes, but I already had this prepared and updated (for unrelated completionist purposes) for a few months: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/218520158963105792/286378301478666250/List_of_all_existing_rated_SM_hacks.txt Considering that I actually did check through those hacks in order to determine the set of items in each hack that constitutes ''non-major-glitched max%'', and since I completed a bit more than 400 of these by now in max% manner (outside of a few TAS-only items), I'd consider myself sufficiently knowledgeable w.r.t. SM hacks to give a proper overview. For some of these hacks, I even went as far as to prepare (non-major-glitched) any% TAS notes for the future of SM (hack) TASing (aswell as for current TASers such as Hoandizi). I basically take the candy for myself (i.e. look through the rooms in the editor to check for sequence breaks and routes, and test specific tricks within the large range of ideas and concepts that are waiting for application, and then document that) and leave the hard TASing and optimization work behind for them ;P Those notes can be found here (and are worked out further for some hacks than others, since it is a WIP): http://deanyd.net/sm/index.php?title=ED%27s_stuff First of all, I can only go over existing hacks, not future hacks, obviously, so that would be another aspect not to forget about. Note that the list of SM hacks merges hacks that are just different versions of each other (i.e. I don't differentiate between all the versions of a given hack). Now, the underflow only needs to be checked for hacks that have chances to be accepted at TASVideos, since outside of TASVideos it is up to the TASer what he wants to include or exclude from the TAS and what rules to use. So I checked the rules and requirements for hacks on TASVideos which can be found here: http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html Those rules mainly say that the hack must (i) be of high quality (ii) be notable/rather well-known (iii) allow for a TAS that is far separated gameplay-wise from other TASes of games using the same (or very similar) engine (which excludes purely cosmetic hacks) (iv) allow for a TAS of high quality So I took the hacks among the top 2 ranks from my list and looked into those (but didn't consider hacks that are even lower rated), with the following result: (Incomplete hacks and hacks that are very close to the original game (so-called ''half-hacks'' in which the room and map layouts arent changed) are taken out of the list.) Hacks for which Draygon Underflow is rather irrelevant for classical branches that cover more content such as non-major-glitched any% and max%: (''-'' means that Draygon doesn't exist in the hack) Advent (underflow cannot be done due to missing powerbomb items) Super Zero Mission (Draygon is the final boss right before the escape which doesn't allow for a route-change) Mega-Metroid X-2 (the any% route already skips the game almost entirely, and in the max% case, Draygon is in the final room before looping back to the ship for escaping the planet) Phazon (Draygon is in the end-game area that is accessible and unlocked after all previous tasks are done; see Hoandizi's TAS for reference) Oxide (powerbombs for underflow are gotten far away from Draygon and one would already have ammunition for Ridley at that point and no go back to Draygon beforehand for anything, and only Tourian remains after Draygon) Cliffhanger (if underflow is skipped, a few more super missile packs are gotten instead on the same route for any%, and Draygon would be the last boss before Mother Brain in here aswell; see my routing notes as reference) Y-Faster (Draygon can be skipped in any%, and getting more ammunition for max% isn't helpful, since all bosses are dramatically weakened) A new mission - So Little Room - Digital Cube - Containment Chamber - Retroid - Exia - Ice Returns - Snowglobe - So Little Garden - Darkholme Hospital - So Little Collab - Angry Fire Chozo - Contention - Grand Prix 1 - Grand Prix 2 - So Little Items - So Little Time - Sunshine Oddity - Black Plague - B2-TW - Cider - Equilibrium - Gloomy Alternative Future Mystery - Hallow Eve - Hauntroid - SMConflict - SMChallenge - Temporus - Wet Winter - Hacks for which Draygon Underflow could have an influence on any% or max% branches: (Most of these hacks are TASed already, and usually, hacks without an existing TAS are TASed) Lost World (Draygon is too far out of the way for any% which skips the boss, but for max% the underflow could maybe influence the route at mid-game; see my tas route notes for reference) Hyper (uses custom mixed ammunition pool, so it is unclear if underflow would be applicable, even though Crystal Flash still can be done) Eris (there is an any% TAS by Kriole that can help to detect a possible influence) Project Base (there is an any% TAS by Taco that can help to detect a possible influence) Revolution Ex (there is an any% TAS by Hoandizi that can help to detect a possible influence) Escape 2 (there is an any% TAS by Zakem66 that can help to detect a possible influence) Redesign (there is an any% TAS by Saturn and 100% TAS by Hoandizi that can help to detect a possible influence) Ice Metal (there is a max% TAS by DCR that can help to detect a possible influence) Stardust (there is an any% TAS by Namespoofer and Hero of the Day that can help to detect a possible influence) Z-Factor New Wet Dream Arrival - - - In general, for a hack to have underflow causing some more major difference, it´d need to have Draygon in the first place aswell as Crystal Flash ammunition needs to be available beforehand, and it should be possible to reach Draygon rather early on, and the hack would need to have parts afterwards at which ammunition plays a more important role so that the underflow can have an impact. Hacks of which I think that TASes of them possibly could be accepted on TASVideos (according to the rules for hacks, considering that the popularity mentioned at (ii) is a time-dependent factor) as SM-engine based games, and not only be listed mostly next to other TASes on Hoandizi's youtube channel: Super Zero Mission (Normal/Hard) So Little Garden Snowglobe Darkholme Hospital So Little Collab Sunshine Oddity Hallow Eve Y-Faster Eris Hyper Redesign Escape 2 Lost World Phazon Arrival (And with this, I'm not saying TASVideos should be filled with TASes of these, but I'm seeing it as if there was no SM hack TAS published yet on TASVideos, and what hacks could in such a situation have a chance to be accepted.)
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
Post subject: Regarding underflow
JXQ
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 5/6/2005
Posts: 3132
I don't see the underflow glitch as anything to specifically have a restriction around. I don't think it breaks the feel of this run, because the route selection and execution are my favorite parts of this game's TASing. Many other TASes also use underflow for game-breaking results, and don't generate this type of discussion.
  • Symphony of the Night underflows the number of gems, and then uses them all to get a lot of money quickly.
  • Many games that allow things on one edge of the screen to leak onto the other edge (horizontal or vertical) are likely due to over/underflow. Bionic Commando, Little Samson, Mega Man 2 (Crash Man stage at least), and probably many more.
  • I assume that that zipping past the left edge of the level to get to the right edge of the level in Genesis Sonic games is due to underflowing of Sonic's position.
  • I think Deadly Towers underflows the number of bells, which is used to beat the game without playing most of the towers, but I'm not sure on that one.
Anyway, I liked this TAS a lot. The number of shinesparks ending at the perfect moment was especially fun to see!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Hoandjzj
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You're truly Master of this game Sniq :D
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feos in his GEG judgment wrote:
if a new version of the real-time run is made, that issue will be brought back up, since these 2 are the runs with the most content overlap. It's just currently, Saturn's movie is way more up-to-date than Tako & Kriole's.
So what do you guys think now? I'd say it makes perfect sense to obsolete the in-game-time run now, that its time has been beaten.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I think any any% run that beats both in-game and realtime is ok to obsolete both runs in the site. The question is more about if the Underflow glitch will be accepted to obsolete the regular Underflowless runs. I'd just like to voice my opinion, which I didn't do in my post earlier in this thread. I agree with the opinion that unlimited ammo feels like GT code a bit and so it would be cool to keep a branch for Underflowless runs if this run is accepted. If a glitch is found where you can trigger unlimited health and many seconds can be saved by using it, I wonder if the comunity would be ok with it. I think in both situations the challenge is taken out and I don't think that's the purpose of a TAS. Challenge is why the RBO branch was created/accepted iirc.
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feos wrote:
So what do you guys think now? I'd say it makes perfect sense to obsolete the in-game-time run now, that its time has been beaten.
I agree. IGT by itself is not a particularly interesting goal choice, and I suspect most people would probably agree with that. The only things it really *guarantees* will be different are door transitions and laggy parts. It just so happens that back in the day it also resulted in significantly different any% routes, which helped justify them being separate categories. That is no longer the case, and it has not been the case for a long time, so I think the category can be put to rest. At the very least, I'd say that underflow and no underflow categories make more sense than IGT and RT at this point.
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That's a good way to look at it, Taco; move to "Any% rollover" and "any% no rollover" instead of "any% realtime" and any% "Ingame time." If we're taking votes on that subject, count me aligned with Taco.
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Kung_Knut
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What criteria determines whether a glitch should spawn its own branch? I understand "game end glitch" that doesn't even legitimately finish a game and "warp glitch" that skips large portions of a game, but why should a glitch that halfway through the run give you more ammo have its own category? It is a natural part of the progression of TASes to exploit new glitches to get a better time. In a year from now, this glitch will be old and seen as a natural part of SM TASing.
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I struggle to understand the other perspective of the underflow glitch because it seems to amount to, "I don't like how it feels". I'm not saying that isn't valid, but I can't identify with it personally. We could have said the same thing about arm-pumping a decade ago that people are saying about the ammo underflow now. Places all across the game become simpler to solve because you can cover more ground in the same amount of time (like heat-room runs using less health). Instead, it was taken on as an essential part of the future of Super Metroid TASing. There is no "arm-pump-less" branch, and there shouldn't be one. The comparison to the GT code doesn't hold water for me, either. There are probably TASes of games with stage select cheats that aren't used which find other glitched ways to skip levels. I'll edit in an example if I think of one. Another point of comparison: This run also shinesparks before getting the speed booster. Does that feel clean? If there were a GT-2 type code discovered that gave you the speed booster when you entered the Maridia tube room and held L, R, down, and select on a second controller, would that affect how the pre-boost sparks feel? Underflow doesn't break the game, and doesn't split things into a significantly different (I understand this is a subjective judgment) type of run, the way that something like Space-Time Beam or the X-Ray wall clipping does. Bring on the future!
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
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The rollover glitch makes the remainder of the game completely trivial, aside from general optimization.
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creaothceann
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Savestates also make the game completely trivial, aside from general optimization.
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Firstly, the underflow glitch can not really be compared to the GT code or ACE or anything like that, except aesthetically. It is not a "major skip glitch", which is an official term here, simply because it doesn't cut most of the previous run's time. The overall time difference is a bit over a minute, and some part of that is other route changes and optimizations. So it's technically a usual case of the "heavy glitch abuse". Secondly, [1368] SNES Super Metroid by Taco, Kriole in 38:41.52, [1908] SNES Super Metroid "ingame time" by Saturn in 39:15.30, and this submission are all unvaultable, which means that to co-exist as separate branches they have to: 1) be significantly entertaining, 2) have significantly different content with little overlap, 3) have the majority of the vocal audience support the separation, 4) have some definable aspects that could prove that there's really enough difference. So for those who are super metroid professionals there's a task that would help judging this run properly: please list things that can only be seen in the branch that uses underflow, and then list such things for a branch that would be similar in all other conditions, but would avoid underflow. Because the way I read the thread now, it's the only difference between the proposed two new branches. I'm asking you guys to help, because even though I generally know the game, I would miss some aspects that are important to a trained eye. On the other side, exactly because I'm not an SM pro, I can evaluate the significance of the factors that the layperson could see, which matters too because we're not an SM TAS site, and we want to meet the expectations of a much broader audience. And finally because SM uses to have exceptionally large amount of branches here. Not that it's a negative thing, it just becomes harder to differentiate between them with the above criteria as that number increases.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Underflow changes very little in this category, and probably nothing that you haven't noticed. In my previous post, I wasn't trying to support giving underflow its own category as much as I was just pointing out that keeping IGT and RT as two separate categories makes little sense to me as an end result of this judging decision since a better option exists to split any%s by. In other words, I was arguing against keeping IGT and RT as separate categories; I was not supporting a no-underflow category. Sorry I didn't make myself clear there. I share moozooh's concerns about underflow. Publishing this run is not a big deal by itself, but it is worrying to me that it would signal this glitch should be used in all categories and hacks even where it may have larger ramifications. However, I don't think that should affect how this run is judged. It's just a personal concern I have, and I recognize that rejecting this run or giving it a separate category on that basis would be ridiculous. Differentiating between underflow and no underflow runs should be left to Super Metroid communities. Within the context of this site's goals, I think this run should be published as the sole any% category. Anything else feels either nonsensical or contradictory to the site's goals.