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[1926] NES Contra (Japan) "pacifist" by Soig & zyr2288 in 09:29.08 After noticing that previous pacifist runs had only one player, I was thinking that we should let this one be part of its own branch. It's probably different enough from the main 2 player pacifist runs.
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despoa wrote:
[1926] NES Contra (Japan) "pacifist" by Soig & zyr2288 in 09:29.08 After noticing that previous pacifist runs had only one player, I was thinking that we should let this one be part of its own branch. It's probably different enough from the main 2 player pacifist runs.
Have you watched them though? In a pacifist setting the only real difference is bosses, and in the 2p version the pacifist goal itself evolved a bit to use subweapons. In the levels, it's 2 chars jumping over everything instead of 1, which is not substantial imo.
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Now that NG+ runs can be accepted in Standard, let's look at the game that coined this very term, Chrono Trigger. [943] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 09:07.12 and the older movies in the chain are all standard NG+ (any%) runs. I suppose these can be moved to a separate branch in Standard under the new rules. [1208] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 06:42.77 uses a set up that's only possible because of SRAM corruption and has questionable technical validity due to emulation from what I understand. Maybe this should be kept there it is.
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Fortranm wrote:
Now that NG+ runs can be accepted in Standard, let's look at the game that coined this very term, Chrono Trigger. [943] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 09:07.12 and the older movies in the chain are all standard NG+ (any%) runs. I suppose these can be moved to a separate branch in Standard under the new rules. [1208] SNES Chrono Trigger "newgame+" by inichi in 06:42.77 uses a set up that's only possible because of SRAM corruption and has questionable technical validity due to emulation from what I understand. Maybe this should be kept there it is.
I don't know the game at all but what was the first run to glitch the save data?
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
[1385] Arcade Metal Slug X "1 player" by AngerFist in 18:48.40 Should be made an independent branch, similarly to Contra. I'm also wondering this other movie should be reconsidered out of obsoletion, despite the judgement of the movie that obsoleted it: #5407: Arcree's Genesis Crack Down "1 player" in 09:14.18
Done.
feos wrote:
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Edit 2: [226] Genesis Beavis and Butt-Head "1 player" by DudicalRat in 10:14.42 Same situation as Metal Slug X. Edit 3: [481] Genesis Cadash "1 player" by nifboy in 21:55.23 Same
Do they meet Moons standard on entertainment?
I have a new question now. Do they look optimized by today's standards?
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feos wrote:
Fortranm wrote:
That being said, if ending sequence disruption is permitted for games where the ending doesn't even update the save file, shall [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 be moved to be branchless with the current branchless movie rebranched to be "glitchless" or something similar if applicable? This is assuming the ending sequence of FF6 on SNES isn't meant to have effects. I don't know enough about this game to tell if that's the case.
I don't know the game either, but the judgment for #4790: keylie & KadMony's SNES Final Fantasy VI "game end glitch" in 32:54.55 said the ending in GEG was fixed so it needs to obsolete "sketch glitch" which didn't have a proper ending. We need more details on why it is or isn't proper.
It has been a while. https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/off-topic/general-gaming/2203739-ff6-snes-version-ending I found this confirmation (from an unexpected place, I know) that the game indeed does not even save after the credits and subsequently has no post-game contents. That means this is in a similar situation as [3822] DS Super Mario 64 DS "jumpless" by Adeal in 55:05.13 which was accepted back in 2018.
feos wrote:
And if it was fine all along, it looks like [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 should obsolete [549] SNES Final Fantasy VI by erokky in 4:05:52.87 which avoids one significant glitch but not another and is not rated well?
To me it seems like that movie really is glitchless based on the description, but does that fall under the Standard "No Major Skips" category when there are already acceptable any% and this "sketch glitch" movie? If not then un-obsoleting the "sketch glitch" movie and making it obsolete [549] SNES Final Fantasy VI by erokky in 4:05:52.87 seem like a good move especially when the latter is slower than even [1555] SNES Final Fantasy V & VI by neo_omegon in 3:52:15.97.
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Fortranm wrote:
To me it seems like that movie really is glitchless based on the description, but does that fall under the Standard "No Major Skips" category when there are already acceptable any% and this "sketch glitch" movie? If not then un-obsoleting the "sketch glitch" movie and making it obsolete [549] SNES Final Fantasy VI by erokky in 4:05:52.87 seem like a good move especially when the latter is slower than even [1555] SNES Final Fantasy V & VI by neo_omegon in 3:52:15.97.
erokky's run also "Abuses programming errors" so it's not glitchless, and sketch glitch is not a major skip glitch. The obsoletion decision has been questioned from the start, and I think it's safe to revert it now, all things considered.
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For those interested, the obsoleted movie uses only one controller. This accounts for the large time difference between the two movies.
Shall [198] SNES Kirby Super Star by Zurreco in 51:02.10 get the "One player in a multiplayer game" tag and be un-obsoleted? [980] NES Snow Bros. "2 players" by Randil in 13:56.85 This for similar reason.
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That TAS is 18 minutes slower than this RTA speedrun. However, it is the only 1 player run we have on this website. Link to video
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Fortranm wrote:
Shall [198] SNES Kirby Super Star by Zurreco in 51:02.10 get the "One player in a multiplayer game" tag and be un-obsoleted?
nitsuja wrote:
Note that I use Wheelie Rider kirby a lot, and the helper is lost between games and clearly less important than kirby, so most of the run doesn't look very 2-player.
Hmm... Technically fine probably, and unobsoletion used to only happen for runs that would be accepted by today's standard, but those are both Standard now, so I'm really unsure.
Fortranm wrote:
[980] NES Snow Bros. "2 players" by Randil in 13:56.85 This for similar reason.
Done.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Post subject: Dr. Mario ACE
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I wrote a plea at Post #524950 - please un-obsolete [1290] NES Dr. Mario by CtrlAltDestroy in 01:12.83 on the basis of it being a different category. Thanks for the consideration!
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dwangoAC wrote:
on the basis of it being a different category
Elaborate?
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feos wrote:
dwangoAC wrote:
on the basis of it being a different category
Elaborate?
The obsoleting TAS is a 100% TAS while this is a fastest ending TAS employing ACE that demonstrates significantly different mechanics such that it should stand on its own. It should not have been obsoleted and should be its own category instead.
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So if both movies were played optimally (given current knowledge), one would absolutely not include another, right?
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feos wrote:
So if both movies were played optimally (given current knowledge), one would absolutely not include another, right?
One completes only a portion of the first level and triggers a game-end glitch, the 100% completes all levels but of course takes much longer.
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It's not a game end glitch but a level completion glitch, it's used in the "all levels" branch in most levels. The judgment for #6123: poco_cpp's NES Dr. Mario "all levels" in 06:44.03 explicitly says:
The player already provided a movie file that beats level 20 HI speed with the same inputs used in the submitted movie during level 20, and I was also able to do the same with other levels. This means that the submitted movie does include the inputs of a fastest-completion run in it; in other words, by fulfilling the full-completion goal, it does also fulfil the fastest-completion goal.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
It's not a game end glitch but a level completion glitch, it's used in the "all levels" branch in most levels. The judgment for #6123: poco_cpp's NES Dr. Mario "all levels" in 06:44.03 explicitly says:
The player already provided a movie file that beats level 20 HI speed with the same inputs used in the submitted movie during level 20, and I was also able to do the same with other levels. This means that the submitted movie does include the inputs of a fastest-completion run in it; in other words, by fulfilling the full-completion goal, it does also fulfil the fastest-completion goal.
That's fine, but they're still *two different goals* - one is finishing all levels, the other is similar to how we handle Tetris. I still assert that there should be a branch that allows for using the built-in start level selection just like Tetris and allows completing the game as fast as possible instead of trudging through a 100%. The current TAS is many years old and can be improved but it should be a separate branch all the same.
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Wiki: MovieRules#MovieMustBeComplete wrote:
Your submission must play the game from the beginning, and must finish the game, or reach the most suitable endpoint the game allows. Level selects, single-level movies, or otherwise incomplete movies are not allowed.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Wiki: MovieRules#MovieMustBeComplete wrote:
Your submission must play the game from the beginning, and must finish the game, or reach the most suitable endpoint the game allows. Level selects, single-level movies, or otherwise incomplete movies are not allowed.
That's fine, but this is the exact same exception to that rule that [4210] NES Tetris "Mode B" by Archanfel & Baxter in 00:36.89 is under, unless you want to see that one removed from the site as well. As an inclusionist I'm of course always going to advocate that branches are in general not a harm to the site but this is the last I'll argue this, I've provided as much evidence as I can as to why this should be treated like Tetris and if Dr. Mario can't get the same exception I'd rather leave the conversation alone than risk Tetris being delisted as that would be even worse than if I'd not said anything at all.
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dwangoAC wrote:
That's fine, but they're still *two different goals* - one is finishing all levels, the other is similar to how we handle Tetris. I still assert that there should be a branch that allows for using the built-in start level selection just like Tetris and allows completing the game as fast as possible instead of trudging through a 100%. The current TAS is many years old and can be improved but it should be a separate branch all the same.
It’s my understanding that the all levels TAS does the exact same goal as the CtrlAltDestroy, as the last level in the all levels TAS uses the highest difficulty. If we were to un-obsolete that old movie and put it as its own category, it would be significantly slower than the already fastest version of level 20. In fact, there was already a submission that completes level 20 significantly faster than the obsoleted movie does. I wouldn’t feel comfortable un-obsoleting a movie who’s goal has since been bested not just from other submissions but also by the all levels movie.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
It’s my understanding that the all levels TAS does the exact same goal as the CtrlAltDestroy, as the last level in the all levels TAS uses the highest difficulty. If we were to un-obsolete that old movie and put it as its own category, it would be significantly slower than the already fastest version of level 20. In fact, there was already a submission that completes level 20 significantly faster than the obsoleted movie does. I wouldn’t feel comfortable un-obsoleting a movie who’s goal has since been bested not just from other submissions but also by the all levels movie.
Oh, I very much anticipate that the new branch would fairly quickly have a new submission against it. That's, in many ways, sort of the point - providing a dedicated branch that allows the fastest game completion regardless of method.
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But that not only requires the authors of the old tas to make a submission for level 20 (since the submission I linked isn’t even the current fastest level 20 from my understanding), but it would essentially be the equivalent of taking the last inputs of the movie file after the last resync and using that as it’s own separate publication. I don’t know if the RNG would be the same after said reset compared to first power on, but if it is then I’m not sure what the point would be other than having two separate publications with one just being essentially an identical segment from the all levels pub. It would be redundant in my opinion.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
But that not only requires the authors of the old tas to make a submission for level 20 (since the submission I linked isn’t even the current fastest level 20 from my understanding), but it would essentially be the equivalent of taking the last inputs of the movie file after the last resync and using that as it’s own separate publication. I don’t know if the RNG would be the same after said reset compared to first power on, but if it is then I’m not sure what the point would be other than having two separate publications with one just being essentially an identical segment from the all levels pub. It would be redundant in my opinion.
We have a somewhat recent example (tho in theory it could have gone to Playground if the author was interested).
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EZGames69 wrote:
But that not only requires the authors of the old tas to make a submission for level 20 (since the submission I linked isn’t even the current fastest level 20 from my understanding), but it would essentially be the equivalent of taking the last inputs of the movie file after the last resync and using that as it’s own separate publication. I don’t know if the RNG would be the same after said reset compared to first power on, but if it is then I’m not sure what the point would be other than having two separate publications with one just being essentially an identical segment from the all levels pub. It would be redundant in my opinion.
If it turns out that it's truly exactly the same input and there's no faster way to complete the game than the final level inputs used in the 100% branch I'd concede that point but what I definitely don't want to see happen is the Tetris Mode B branch removed in the future if a run that does all levels but has identical final level input comes up...
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For what it’s worth, the current all levels publication says it’s console verified, but I’m unsure how it handles the resets and if it has different rng each time.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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