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Zinfidel wrote:
- No memory cards (Slot A/B/SP1 all set to <Nothing>)
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Not participating is fine, I think it's just fair to keep you as a co-author, especially if no one is able beat your times.
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What's the right memory card setup for this run? Desyncs for me in the first level.
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But you saved a ton of time!
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HandsomeRudy wrote:
I guess it's my turn to fail now.
I discovered something that needs further investigation. Keep it delayed.
Wait this post used to link the new movie that I already used as a replacement, now it just says "keep it delayed". Is the work still being done?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Sonia wrote:
By the way, will it be possible to change the NeoGeo Bios [URL=https://imgur.com/Sb9qFoK]like in mame[/URL]? The default European one isn't good because some games are censored (example: Metal Slug having white blood). I know it's possible to change it if you mess around with dipswitches, but other Bioses are already uncensored by default (plus allowing the games to be played in different languages).
Implemented!
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It's a great emu indeed but I don't know of a good way to emulate android in a tasable environment, and it's non-trivial to posrt j2meloader to windows or linux.
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Added support for DIP switches!
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Arc wrote:
People are saying only input matters, yet the movie rules contradict that thought. "There is no strict authorship rule for cases when research or development was contributed instead of actual movie input[, so such cases are left to the judge's discretion]." Saying that there is no strict rule means that sometimes that person should receive authorship credit, and sometimes that person shouldn't. Considering that I contributed a very large majority of the research and development of this movie, this certainly seems like a prime instance of deserving authorship. Otherwise why is this statement in the rules?
You can't make a point if you consistently fail to read:
feos wrote:
We respect when someone has built something from scratch, and we respect when someone whose input wasn't directly used is still credited due to massive contribution of some other kind. But we can not demand that co-authors are added if CC-BY-2.0 is not violated.
The person should receive credit if entertainment solutions (non-speed-critical actions) are directly copied. If they are not copied, it's up to the author whom to include as co-authors, and the judge decides whether it still makes sense based on significance of contribution.
Arc wrote:
CC2 says "You are free to ... remix, transform, and build upon the material for any purpose under the following terms: Attribution — You must give appropriate credit[.]" Is this movie not building on the previous movie's material? Synonyms for "build on" include expand on, develop, refine, and improve on (per thefreedictionary.com). Is that not what DreamYao did to the previous movie? (To be clear, of course players can improve other players' movies and claim authorship.)
The page you're quoting this from literally says at the top:
This is a human-readable summary of (and not a substitute for) the license.
The actual legal code if CC-BY-2.0 (that you somehow missed several times) defines "work" and "derivative work" as follows:
"Work" means the copyrightable work of authorship offered under the terms of this License.
Literally the movie file itself alone. You don't submit a bunch of ideas to tasvideos as a potent office. We don't handle ideas and their authorship, because it's never been the goal of the site. We handle movie files. We also encourage people to share their discoveries because that makes the resulting movies better.
"Derivative Work" means a work based upon the Work or upon the Work and other pre-existing works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted, except that a work that constitutes a Collective Work will not be considered a Derivative Work for the purpose of this License.
The phrase "base upon" may sound confusing if you take it out of context. If you just look it up in dictionaries, it refers to other synonyms in the same dictionary that refer to other synonyms, etc. Dictionaries don't provide absolute definitions that licenses could just refer to, which is why licenses are known for "redefining" a whole bunch of words, and those redefined meanings will be used to resolve a dispute, not third-party dictionaries.
So first, the license lists entities of the same nature, and then generalizes them to potentially include other entities of the same nature without having to exhaustively list them all.
any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted
We can also look at the dictionary meaning of the very word "derivative", shall we?
Copied or adapted from others
So. To finally and unambiguously prove that your work has been "recast, transformed, or adapted" in this movie, you'll need to provide examples of where your movie's input is directly copied, as we've been suggesting you this entire thread.
Saying "my movie was stolen and then completely changed to pretend it was original" is ignorant, arrogant, ridiculous, insulting, assumes bad faith, and scares contributors away if we support such a stance officially, directly or indirectly.
Arc wrote:
Again if the stance of the site is "our movie rules allow stealing ideas even though that directly contradicts the concept of plagiarism," the question is why is that the rule
If your stance if "I win by consistently failing to read", then this discussion is done.
Arc wrote:
I do believe that previous authors should be credited as authors as long as their ideas are still being used in the most recent movie.
We didn't ask you to repeat the same questionable claim over and over. We asked you to explain how to resolve problems that such an approach automatically causes.
Arc wrote:
In the interest of solution-seeking, I would be open to the 'Hollywood' solution to writing credits, which is to credit a limited amount of people who made the most significant contributions.
It's what we have the Thanks section of the submission text for. Arbitrary number of people and other entities can be credited for arbitrary things. Usually it's just people, and usually for things that made the resulting movie better.
Arc wrote:
So perhaps in cases like this one that are a mix of input and ideas from various people, movie authorship could include the ideas as standard policy but limit authorship to the 3 or so people who made the most significant contributions.
Am I right that you're repeating the same claim that you've completely failed to prove? You're consistently refusing to even check if this movie contains any of your input (or anyone else's for that matter). But you still claim that it does. This is going nowhere.
Arc wrote:
(Again this is just a suggestion for the sake of possibly reaching a reasonable agreement.)
Which problem is it trying to solve exactly?
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Arc wrote:
If the policy of the site really is that uncredited theft of ideas is acceptable and only input matters
By your logic no one is ever allowed to watch the movie they want to beat, because watching any part of that movie will automatically result in stealing ideas. So by your logic, every new iteration of any given branch is obliged to list all the previous authors who worked on that game.
Do you provide any options for people who actually invented something on their own independently? How do they prove it's not stolen? Yeah, by your logic they are obliged to prove their innocence, otherwise it's automatically plagiarism.
Arc wrote:
the whole point here is that this site's stance on plagiarism creates a bad faith environment with the apparent justification that crediting too many people, even when they deserve it, is somehow bad.)
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Arc wrote:
I submit movies allowing others to use my ideas as long as credit is given, per CC.
I'm still waiting for quotes from CC-BY-2.0 where it talks about ideas.
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is passing off another person's ideas as your own without attribution; TASVideos does not have the authority to redefine this concept.
I'm still waiting for examples of input copy-paste contained in this movie. Because input is what we submit, judge, encode, and publish. We don't submit or encode ideas. Did you miss my link to our Movie Rules where they talk about co-authorship?
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is easy to identify with these 3 steps:
Is the creator aware of the source material? (Yes)
Did the creator take ideas from the source material? (Yes)
Did the creator give credit to the source material? (No)
Where in the Movie Rules did you find that definition?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added.
CC BY 2.0 doesn't mention "ideas" or "techniques" though.
Arc wrote:
DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts. It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie. He improved on my work.
It's ridiculous to prove a claim just by stating that the opposite feels ridiculous. It's ridiculous to see that as a reason to assume bad faith and mindread, while also demanding something one hasn't proven (yet) to have deserved.
DreamYao didn't wait for 17 years just to take over the movie and the credits. He improved it after 5 years of no progress from you or anyone else. He only joined in 2019 and immediately started working on NES Batman. Look whose movie was improved. Not a lot of people are able to beat Aglar's times.
When other people are not happy with new improvements, they just beat them over again. And if this run is still improvable, the best way to resolve this is a framewar. Then all the participants can be credited. But so far, there's no information about Arc explicitly helping DreamYao in any way. And no information about blatant copy-paste. We respect when someone has built something from scratch, and we respect when someone whose input wasn't directly used is still credited due to massive contribution of some other kind. But we can not demand that co-authors are added if CC-BY-2.0 is not violated.
If your argument is "his movie is faster than mine therefore he did look at my movie as a reference, therefore I should be credited", it's not how we handle improvements that don't contain copy-paste. Otherwise with every new movie the list of authors would be growing indefinitely.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Unfortunately I’m not sure what this means for the current starred TAS of the game, I like both movies for different reasons. But I’m ok with the star being given to the playaround TAS if it has to be taken from BtP and BtT.
I don't know the game at all but I watched them side by side level by level, to compare the feel of gameplay. And gameplay in those 2 movies is completely different. It's 2 unrelated games that share the characters in terms of appearance, that all.
We've been giving a bunch of stars to games from the same franchise on the same platform if gameplay is drastically different. It kinda makes more popular games look like they're the only thing an average viewer should care about. But it's not like we've ever had to not give a star to an obscure game because of that. There should be general variety in the star list itself, but again, these 2 movies are different.
I don't think we have a single game with 2 starred movies yet. But does anyone know good arguments against such a situation? I personally prefer the playaround, the current star has seen its fame since 2017 already. But that doesn't sound like a good reason in isolation to remove the star.
EDIT:
I checked.
Sonic 3
SM64
SMB3
SMW
Super Metroid
and arguably Link's Awakening/DX
all have 2 stars. That's quite a precedent imo.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Sonia wrote:
Pulirula still have garbled graphics and Gaiapolis still crashes the emu though. Just pointing that out if you want to look into those next.
And they work fine in actual mame?
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People, please test audio again! AV sync on long periods of time as well as audio after save/loading. Maybe still not perfect but should be much better!
Also added all the missing mnemonics ("!") mentioned in the thread.
Link is in the OP.
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Only if it uses a heavy glitch that is entirely an emulation error, usually relevant for major skip glitches.
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Going back to the first quote and the previous standards I brought up (SMB3 and Chrono Trigger), "game end glitch" is generally treated as a universal category despite what methods are used. Save corruption or no save corruption, both runs get to a point where they manipulate memory to reach the credits instantly. My arguments are upholding how the site has historically handled (coin) cases like these.
I went through every currently published run categorized with Major Skip Glitch, and out of all of them, only Gen1 Pokemon (Yellow "game end" and Red "save") and Gen2 Pokemon (Crystal "save" and Silver "coin case") fit this criteria.
I can check obsoleted movies and obsoletion chains as well, though I imagine that'd take a lot more time.
That latter case is no longer a precedent, as per the 6796S's rejection message:
Memory wrote:
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Updated the OP, please verify the wording.
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What about other things mentioned in Post #505613? So far it looks like this run is indeed true glitchless!
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Turns out I hallucinated what it was about. Accuracy, not sync!
[20:38:54] <Warepire> feos: https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/pull/8348 This got merged, so the TASing requirements on Dolphin must be updated.
[20:39:13] <feos> I forgot what it affects
[20:39:38] <Warepire> Basically, glitches in games may no longer behave according to console
[20:39:57] <feos> huh?
[20:40:52] <Warepire> You're not going to get any memory mapping faults etc with the MMU disabled, so if a glitch reads outside of memory, the result will be different
[20:41:07] <Warepire> Also glitches requiring game crashes etc
[20:41:29] <feos> hold on
[20:42:31] <Warepire> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_management_unit
[20:42:35] <feos> different from console, right? not different every time
[20:42:43] <Warepire> Yes, different from console
[20:43:14] <Warepire> We want to be as close to console as possible, so we must require full MMU on.
[22:43:23] <TASVideoAgent> New reply by feos (GC/Wii: Updated important information for TASing with Dolphin): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/489664#489664 [a:1]
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What's the source of that pic, Nach?
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Do you have to perform anything specific to walk on air aside form... just keep walking? And how long does it last at max?
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GMP wrote:
Thanks man, yeah I have learnt my lesson and will never do a arbitrary goal TAS again lol.
GMP wrote:
Yesterday in the RTA speedrunning community, we discussed about the sort of arbitrary nature of the ruleset and we decided its not very apt to call it "glitchless" and renamed the category to "No Major Glitches". So I decided to add that as the branch to this run. However if the judges feel that it is not necessary, feel free to remove the branch.
Arbitrary goal is not a problem if it's clearly defined and the community supports it, and if it's properly achieved.
The problem with this submission originally was that some of the techniques used do look like glitches to some viewers. The proper way to resolve this is by bringing up official information of some kind that proves it's an intended mechanic. For example, explicit checks in the code, or explicit mentions on the manual.
Then whatever the community had doubts about, but what has been proven to be intended, can stay in the future run. And what looks like a glitch and lacks explicit official support, should be avoided.
But why still care about the "true glitchless" branch now that we've ranamed this to "NMG"?
We don't officially use the term "major glitch" because it's too subjective. Instead we use heavy glitch abuse, and so far, looking at what glitches this run avoids and the other one uses, it's what makes them different branches on SRC.
Now here's what our thing looks like:
[2601] NES Mega Man "game end glitch" by pirohiko & finalfighter in 00:32.11
versus
[4131] NES Mega Man by Shinryuu, pirohiko, Maru & finalfighter in 09:45.35[3264] N64 Super Mario 64 "1 key" by Tyler Kehne, mkdasher, sonicpacker, snark, SilentSlayers, ToT, Plush, Gaehne D, Eru & sm64expert in 04:21.30
versus
[2062] N64 Super Mario 64 "70 stars, no Backwards Long Jump" by Jesus, Kyman, MICKEY_Vis11189, MoltovM, Nahoc, snark, sonicpacker, ToT, CeeSammerZ, coin2884, Eru, Goronem, Mokkori, Nekuran, Nothing693 & pasta in 42:58.52
Note the tremendous time difference, and how fundamentally different the resulting branches look. It's called a major skip glitch, because it's a glitch that skips majority of the game. So for games where such a glitch is possible, the run that avoids it is usually entertaining and different enough to be its own branch.
But there are also games where heavy glitch abuse doesn't skip most of the game, but some people find it questionable in terms of entertainment. So we allow to void it if it makes the movie more interesting, or equally interesting but different enough.
[3570] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog by Aglar in 14:13.87
versus
[1937] Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog "no zips" by Aglar in 17:36.58[696] Genesis Pulseman by Twisted Eye in 25:16.02
versus
[862] Genesis Pulseman "no motion glitch" by IdeaMagnate in 33:57.15
In this game, it's a set of glitches that's avoided or used. It's not a set of major skip glitches, and their sum is not a major skip glitch, because each of them skips only a small portion of the game and is in itself not severe enough.
What do we call it then? I actually don't know. And on the first glance it may look like categorization is only a small and barely relevant problem. "Oh we can't come up with a proper branch label so we must reject the run." But the main question is why can't we come up with a proper branch label? From reading the thread, I think it's because the goal is not a clear cut.
Avoiding more glitches will make this branch more different from any%, and also more entertaining, because people won't feel that questionable glitches are spoiling the fun. When coming up with a new goal (new for our site), we want it to be as different from any% and 100% as possible, because that way we can feature as much content as possible through all the variety of branches that we can afford. Minor differences blend together, and it gets hard to expect unique content from branches that are published differently. So we encourage maximum difference.
Bottomline. The feedback regarding this run's goal was mixed not (just) because it wasn't labeled the way the RTA run is. It's because the borderline of a glitch definition is blurred. So I think that doing a properly glitches run will be received just as good in terms of votes (if not better), and will also not cause the questions about its category.
And the best way to resolve those questions is to draw the line where the developers draw it explicitly. And if they don't address something that causes questions, just avoid it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
