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Memory wrote:
We could absolutely potentially replace the existing ALTTP star with the suggested movie if people desire it
I don't understand Zelda at all, but the new run is, well, new, and it's rating is way higher. Does it actually look better than the 10-year-old old movie?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Arc wrote:
The credibility of the Stars tier has reached a new low.
Suggested remedy:
1. Remove all current Star designations.
2. Establish a Council of Starmen (minimum 3 members).
3. Have the Council decide an initial 100 movies to promote to Stars.
4. Promote those 100 movies to Stars.
5. Dissolve the Council.
6. All subsequent promotions to Stars are nominated and decided as part of the Awards every January.
That would surely be helpful, though not as helpful as
7. Read.
feos wrote:
Even though this movie looks stylistically identical to the NMG branch that is starred and has great ratings, I'd like to see this run's ratings. After all, this movie inherits all the problematic aspects of [3653] SNES Super Metroid by Sniq in 35:58.31. Then there's arguably less difference between this and the current NMG than there was between the previous 100% and previous NMGs. As a result, I'd prefer having a Star related discussion separated, and well after this run gets published and gains enough post-publication feedback.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Okay I can say that for games that have no way to define full completion at all, and were more or less designed for score instead, it might be a lesser evil to allow "max score" for Vault as a replacement for full completion. I'll see where this gets us.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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We don't want to support non-arcades because they are quite poorly emulated to be frank. It's either emulated worse than our currently supported emulators do it, or worse than emulators we currently don't support do it. But I don't think any system the MESS part supports is actually good and up to our standards on accuracy.
Another vid meanwhile:
Link to video
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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moozooh wrote:
So far you've called the goal of highest score "arbitrary"
Let's see...
feos wrote:
With Moons policies, almost any arbitrary goal can be accepted as long as it's entertaining to the general audience. You make it sound like entertainment isn't a factor for us, and boring arbitrary goals either go to Vault or get rejected.
I didn't call the high score goal arbitrary, I was clearly talking about various possible goals that are eligible for Moons and not for Vault, as per Wiki: MovieRules.
moozooh wrote:
"fundamentally ambiguous"
feos wrote:
Shoving things through the back door means that when we abstract away and try to objectively assess pros and contras, we find out it's not such a great idea to have fundamentally ambiguous goals in Vault, especially when there's already a good place for them, where they have value and are easily accessed.
Indeed, here's I'm referring to the high score goal as fundamentally ambiguous. It's ambiguous because there's no explicit programmatic limit on score in such runs: you can't collect it all, you can only collect some maximum of it, this amount is determined by all sorts of factors, and you have various levels of control over them. There might be a glitch forcing you to die in a certain level, but later on another glitch can be found that would allow you to skip that level or get past the problematic point otherwise. There could be some soft limit that can be bypassed by clever gameplay actions. This goal is competitive exactly because there are often ways to collect higher score. It's fundamentally ambiguous because you can't know in advance what your actual max score is in the end after all the effort. In the same manner as the final movie time is fundamentally ambiguous, unpredictable, improvable, etc.
Strictly speaking, not the goal itself is fundamentally ambiguous in this case, but the main metric behind it. And since Vault is limited to just two metrics - movie time and clearly defined full completion - the goal of high score can indirectly be called ambiguous relating to Vault, where you guys want this goal to be added.
moozooh wrote:
"hard to measure"
feos wrote:
For goals where no limit can be found whatsoever, you constantly balance between unpredictable time and unpredictable score, compromising one or another, or both at once, which makes it a hell to compare and obsolete with improvements, because it's so hard to actually measure improvement.
Since the metric is ambiguous and the final score count is unpredictable (hence the competition aiming to maximize it indefinitely), it makes the primary goal of Vault, record speed, less clear.
By the current Vault rules, you just optimize everything out and try to get the lowest final time possible, optionally fulfilling the full completion requirements. The speed record is legitimate, obvious, easy to understand and to rely on.
Adding an unpredictable metric to it means there will always be a conflict: one can waste time to gain higher score, waste score to save time, get higher score without losing time, and save time without losing score. One also has to be optimal in gaining both score and time, but with 2 unpredictable functions that you now have to definitively control, it becomes really hard to optimize such a movie and to verify improvements. Not impossible of course, but this removes the clarity of goals that Vault is founded on.
moozooh wrote:
these descriptions are borderline FUD based on no actual cases where it was hard to determine whether something was an improvement (or even a good score, period)—you just came up with some vague imaginary scenarios that haven't been problematic since the very beginning of organized score tracking.
You could've just asked what I meant instead of imagining those overdramatized pictures.
moozooh wrote:
And all the while multiple national and international organizations and sites have tracked records based on this very metric for longer than you and I have been alive. Surely they have figured it out—why can't we? As I repeat again, it's just a simple counter that can safely be taken at face value (barring the problem with running out of displayed digits, which is adequately solved by memory watch as in this case—a tool we have that unassisted scorekeepers don't!). You don't have to be a PhD to tell that 100 points is more than 99. I honestly don't understand why this seems so difficult; it's really anything but.
Those communities work with human records, so it's a competition of human skills, and as such it can be so popular and have all the crowd around it. We remove the human element from TASes, so the task of maximizing the score is not so deeply impressive when tools assist you. Of course it can still be highly impressive. And guess what, we solve this already by putting such movies to Moons based on viewer support.
moozooh wrote:
feos wrote:
Are we past 2012 yet?
Well, are we? The reason this discussion happens at all is that the run has to either comply with an (arbitrarily chosen) entertainment barrier to make it to the Moons or be rejected as ineligible for the Vault as per its goal choice.
When dealing with a community of people with various tastes, you have to account for their subjective feelings when making decisions that directly affect what they get to see published. Categories currently allowed for Vault are extremely good at being clear, because over the years I can't remember a single person saying we shouldn't allow any% or 100% for Vault. With categories that some people asked to add to Vault, it always boils down to this: people say some game genre or goal should be included into Vault, but the majority of the requesters completely refuse to enjoy the result of TASing that game or goal. Just like you admit that this movie's content is unlikely to get to Moons, almost no one was honestly entertained by the Math Blaster movie that featured an educational game. Since people in that thread couldn't find vastly convincing reasons to allow such a game for Vault, and then there was a disagreement among judges about rules interpretations, we had a staff discussion that involved clarifying what the site wants, what the community wants, what makes the most sense, and how to clearly express that in the rules. I sparked this discussion and I was leading it, and I can tell you that the way you're describing our policies and how they are designed is infinitely far from reality.
moozooh wrote:
In other words, you're trying to determine whether to filter out a technically well-made run by its goal choice—based on a very representative selection of a dozen forum members. You can theorize upon whether the audience is entertained all day, but the truth of the matter is that TASVideos forums have absolutely laughable user presence for anything unpopular, and even then the response has been mixed rather than strictly negative.
Mixed response means that if we agree with, let's kindly say, half of the crowd and accept a borderline movie, people posting in the thread will completely forget about it, and after publication people who care about ratings will come and fail to get entertained. It happens all the time and it means we can't just rely on half the posters saying "this is not so bad actually". Posters is only one of the factors to account for. Actual movie contents is another one, and judges are supposed to understand what kind of movies we have in Moons based on gameplay and contents. Feedback of those who rate movies after publication is a very important factor as well, and we're also supposed to understand how people are likely to rate; we also encourage raters when we determine whether a movie deserves a star, in addition to other stars related aspects.
moozooh wrote:
None of the members of the Bongo community Lizstar is from commented here (or at least they didn't identify themselves). But if you look at YouTube, you'll see (as of right now) the temp encode has 425 views. Unless there is some gross cheating involved (which I severely doubt), some four hundred people have at least partially watched this run, of which less than 3% bothered to vote in this thread. There are more likes there than there are votes here.
This suggests to me that a non-negligible audience exists for this run. But let's be frank here, the chances of it making it to the Moons by entertainment is incredibly slim. So yeah, it's 2019, we have a submission requested by several hundred people on a more visible/accessible platform, and you're about to reject it based on a technicality that artificially reduces the scope of the site.
Should I go to youtube and find out how many people watch and like videos with Game Genie or manual RAM poking? By your logic this alone is supposed to force us to deny the rules of our community and accept blatant cheating for publication.
moozooh wrote:
And before that, you suggested that having a run with repetitive content in it hurts the site somehow, which also reeks of the 2012 rhetoric.
Quote?
moozooh wrote:
What is the actual problem with having highest score as a Vault-able category? What makes it an unreliable or otherwise unwanted metric?
I elaborated on my point 5 above where I explained why I called this goal ambiguous and hard to measure improvements for.
My point 1 escaped your attention completely (even after I mentioned it explicitly again), but it's one of the main problems the current movie rules have with your suggestion.
Here's our general approach to branching:
Movie Rules on goals wrote:
Arbitrary goal choices need to offer new TAS material to be accepted. Choices which have no goal other than to create a new game branch are rejected.
Keep the number of different branches per game minimal. A run for a proposed new branch for a game should offer compelling differences relative to previously published runs of that game.
Sometimes what is claimed to be an improvement may necessitate a new branch, such as when a huge time-saving glitch is involved (see SMW2), or unusual goal choice is exhibited (as in Princess-only SMB2 run, whose first iteration beat then-current any%).
To determine whether there is new TAS material or compelling differences compared to vaultable goals for this game, I watched this submission side by side with the RTA any% run.
The game is overall not as basic as directly running right all the time. You have an option to ignore items and just have any%, only utilizing the items that can save you time. You also have an option to collect all items, and then it could be considered full completion. In an earlier post I said that max score can't be considered full completion in itself if there's higher score that you can potentially get. But if we define full completion as "all items", that seems to fit just fine. There's a question about loops and in-game conditions preventing full item collection in later loops, but as I said, maybe later loops aren't required.
This movie does collect all items in earlier loops. So if we decide that 1 loop is enough, then a vaultable full completion movie of this game has already been made and only has to be trimmed, checked for optimality, and has a solid chance to be published.
Fastest completion goal is still available for this game and it will also be published if someone makes it, once we determine how loops affect gameplay contents and difficulty.
If you compare this submission to those 2 perfectly vaultable goals, it doesn't feature any unique content or compelling gameplay differences. And this is even more so for games that are simpler than this one. Any% and 100% is exhaustive for most boring games that Vault exists for.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Memory wrote:
Why do we care about what is the most popular speedrunning categories? I'd argue the only reason we care about speedrun records more than other records is simply that we started out with speedruns and it's what is most popular currently. However, I don't see that as a particularly valid reason to favor them in our rules. Given that it's been 2 years since the last publication that didn't aim for speed as one of its primary goals, even for Moons, I'd argue that something has gone wrong here. Communities that don't aim for speed clearly exist and even thrive, but we don't see any of them here.
Until 2012, speedrun records that didn't look impressive to the general audience were rejected. The site cared the most about publishing the most entertaining movies. It didn't have to force speedrunning competitions, they felt natural to TASing and gained their popularity naturally too, as long as the result was decently entertaining. In addition to that, some movies that weren't speed oriented were encouraged, made, and published, because of the same reason: aiming to publish the most impressive content.
When Vault was added, its goal was keeping speedrun records that would've been (and have been) rejected until then. It was an inclusive approach, a lot of old submissions were unrejected, a lot of them got published. And Vault has never been a target for the site: it's name, it's icon, it's appearance (not being included into primary movie lists) was considered by some people a discouragement! It just naturally happened that some people preferred to focus on Vault when TASing.
Since arbitrary movie goals were meant to go to Moons, the idea of Vault was limiting arbitrariness as hard as possible. It makes perfect sense to me: if a movie looks impressive to the general audience, it can have a vast variety of self-invented goals. Previously such movies were also rejected, because some goals were considered too arbitrary, and the judge guideline was limiting the branch count as hard as possible, in order to raise the entry barrier and only feature the best movies.
When Moons became a tier, demand for entertaining arbitrary goals was satisfied, just like demand for boring speedrun records was. Both were previously outright rejected, now most of them have a solid chance. It's no one's fault if a movie fails to entertain enough people, but then it means watching it is a fairly niche joy, depending on personal tastes of really small groups of people. We don't blame people enjoying them, but it was a common decision between admins, other staff members, and the community, to limit Vault to the most clear speedrun goals, and to leave Moons for all the rest. Every movie has a chance, but we can't really publish everything. We're limited by the general site vision, by demand, and by manpower. We can't ignore one when we feel like changing or following others, it has to be a general consensus. Maybe there will be, but as of right now, I'm having problems with high score categories in Vault, and I'll discuss them in my next post.
And I feel that most of this talk should be moved here.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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moozooh wrote:
There is no liability to having runs like these—well-made, with natural and clearly defined goals—on the site, even if the game isn't popular.
My point 1 addresses runs like this. Also I'd like to see my other points discussed, they mention bigger problems than dealing with overflowing score (that can be just disregarded from "high score" runs).
moozooh wrote:
We are way past the point where having "too many runs on the site" was a legitimate concern (if it ever was, really). The first time there was a discussion about that, the site had only around 300 active publications, and now we have over 2000. None of the platforms serving gaming content—be it video streaming services, game stores, or something else—have been as picky as TASVideos when it comes to disqualifying content for goal choices that happened to be misaligned with its policies at the time of submission. It's like the site is continuously afraid to expand and is trying its hardest not to, treating any relaxation of its rules as some sort of a dangerous compromise that may hurt it one day (though it never actually has). Something to think about in any case.
Are we past 2012 yet? What you're describing has ended 7 tears ago. With Moons policies, almost any arbitrary goal can be accepted as long as it's entertaining to the general audience. You make it sound like entertainment isn't a factor for us, and boring arbitrary goals either go to Vault or get rejected. If people are not entertained by a movie, why would you try to sell it to them regardless? In Moons we have a place for "high score" movies without any problems. Shoving things through the back door means that when we abstract away and try to objectively assess pros and contras, we find out it's not such a great idea to have fundamentally ambiguous goals in Vault, especially when there's already a good place for them, where they have value and are easily accessed.
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Memory wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure that I like that high score isn't a valid option for Vault. It seems to me that Vault is heavily biased in favor of speedruns and against other competitive forms of superplay. TAS doesn't stand for Tool Assisted Speedruns, it stands for Tool Assisted Superplay, yet our Vault policies don't really reflect this. Sure for some games it'd be trivial but same is also true for speedruns.
TAS stands for both speedrun and superplay, and we have tiers for both.
Wiki: Vault wrote:
Aims to fulfill the site's goal of being a Tool-assisted Speedrun records site, as well as be an information based central repository for the body of TAS literature.
Aims to fulfill the site's goal of exposing as many people as possible to Tool-assisted Speedrun/Superplay movies as an art form.
Moons is the middle ground, and its page doesn't tell what exactly it means by TAS, but the goal indicates it more or less:
Wiki: Moons wrote:
Aims to fulfill the site's goal of being entertainment based and provide impressive and high quality TAS movies to the audience.
Vault goals have to be strictly limited, because otherwise it turns into a questionable mess of arbitrariness that isn't even justified by entertainment value. They also have to be as clear as possible, because when it's not clear, the record itself becomes iffy too. With pure fastest completion and full completion our definitions are simple and verifiable.
The allowed set of goals can't be painlessly narrowed down further, because those are the most popular speedrunning categories, they have the highest demand, and they are fairly competitive. And it can't be painlessly expanded either.
For boring simplistic games, additional goals won't look substantially different from standard Vault goals.
What we require for games that have no ending is already exhaustive, and playing the game farther just to get a certain score count won't add any unique content.
When a score just overflows at some point, it may take hours of identical gameplay, which has little speedrun record or even superplay value.
Just like with educational games, if we actually get superplay, we publish it to higher tiers: nothing really prevents a high score movie from being entertaining to the general audience. But if it fails to entertain, it doesn't mean we should shove it in through the back door.
For goals where no limit can be found whatsoever, you constantly balance between unpredictable time and unpredictable score, compromising one or another, or both at once, which makes it a hell to compare and obsolete with improvements, because it's so hard to actually measure improvement.
moozooh wrote:
Now to comment on the goals: this is an arcade game, and the vast majority of arcade games are made with scoring in mind (because having a scoreboard on the cab is one of the principal ways to get you to challenge them upon beating the game, so you keep spending coins), so going for score is definitely not a misguided choice in this case—and neither is looping the game until the kill screen. Moreover, what made me watch this TAS in the first place was the fact that it was presented as a bona fide research project rather than something picked up to get another publication on the site. It shows genuine care and intellectual insight into the subject matter—and, game choices aside, that is exactly the approach I think we cherish the most here, in principle. A person who is actively seeking the game's limits out of love for it is the person most likely to end up with a superior result.
This raises an interesting question: whether we can accommodate high score completions into the Vault for the games that warrant them (read: mostly arcade games and their ports) the same way as regular any% runs if they don't meet requirements for a higher tier. It feels like it would open up some doors for fresh and high quality content brought as the result of such a research. Rejecting a run like this—and this one in particular—on a technicality would feel quite counterproductive to me because it's evident there is at least some audience for runs like this (I mean, even this game actually has its own community...), and considering the diligence involved, we would be very glad to have this run without having to ask extra questions if only the policy did account for the goals in question. So I'm with Memory on this matter.
We can't judge research behind a movie, because it's not verifiable and not reproducible.
Loving the game you TAS is indeed a thing we praise. But it's a subjective thing, and subjective feelings have to be shared by broad audience and reach Moons or Stars. Vault is for objectivity and clarity. We want its movies to look as legitimate and reliable as possible to as many people as possible.
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This is a problem with how avs2pipemod and freesub "work" together, and it's quite hard to figure out. Lately I discovered that sometimes it does proceed after freezing on the -info command for a while. If you only need HD, by all means drop freesub, it looks bad at high resolutions.
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Looks like an exception to me, also it was trivial to decide since it was the same branch as the currently published one, and they both clearly belong to vault. Most of the time it doesn't matter either where an obsoleted movie resides. At least with Moons/Vault it's relatively easy to decide. With Stars, it's a waste of time, because we don't explicitly feature obsoleted Stars alongside current Stars, aside from a single link on a single page.
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Which obsoleted movies did I move from Moons to Vault?
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I don't think unstarring obsoleted movies retroactively helps anyone in any way.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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ViGadeomes wrote:
Hello, I have a game where at the beginning after creating your character, a beginning the adventure. Someone comes and speaks to us to ask us if we want to take a home to begin the adventure if we refuse his proposition, we reach the credits. Is this way can be considered as beating the game ?
It's a normal in-game scenario right? Doesn't sound like completing anything whatsoever.
ViGadeomes wrote:
Also, since I'm pretty sure all my TASes of this game will go to Vault and that we can choose the name of our character and some other things. Can I submit with at first a "funny" name if by any miracle my movies are enough enertainning to Moons and if not I can put the movies with all choices that are faster if i see that the Vault is the only option ? Or do I have to put my fastest movie at first ?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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The only mistake a TASer can do is not fixing mistakes that were already made. If it's been fixed, it's not a mistake, but experience! Just actually take your time and study the thing.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I don't think starring obsoleted movies retroactively helps anyone in any way.
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zdoroviy_antony wrote:
Why this http://tasvideos.org/1962M.html and this http://tasvideos.org/3665M.html movies not having star tier? They are surely desrved it, by both speed and eterainment, even if they had been beaten. I mean SMB warpless is one of the hardest categories for WR TAS and 18:38.22 stayed for 6 years and was very optimized, when MrWint's movie beat that movie that stayed 6 years.
Are you planning to go through all 1172 obsoleted Moons movies and check which of them deserve a star? Are you suggesting featuring obsoleted starred movies on the Front Page? I don't think starring obsoleted movies retroactively helps anyone in any way.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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mcill wrote:
In a discussion of the Space Station Silicon Valley TAS that was recently published, the topic of a completion TAS was brought up. I'm interested in doing an SSSV completion TAS at some point, so I figured I'll ask this now.
In SSSV, there is an item (the Fat Bear Mountain souvenir/trophy) that cannot be collected because they forgot to enable collision.
Last year a romfix was developed that does 3 things:
1. enables collision for this item
2. fixes a known expansion pak incompatibility that causes the game to freeze
3. provides language select options
My question is: would a TAS made with the romfix be accepted for a completion run or would it have to use the base game? The gameplay would be identical because I would run through the item in the base game to fulfill the purpose of getting "as close as possible" to completion. It's just more satisfying to actually collect that trophy. It would be pretty cathartic for fans of the game to see the thing disappear too.
We have a movie that uses a patched ROM because otherwise the game can't even be completed. But for visually identical outcome, we don't allow patched game images if we have unpatched ones available.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I guess her point that's being disproved is that one's suffering is entirely someone else's fault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I think we realize that no one is perfect. People in those videos giving advises aren't perfect either. They make mistakes and don't always observe the problem from all available angles.
In Good Will Hunting, "It's not your fault" was a cathartic moment that fixed the guy, and it can't be underestimated. At the same time, neither side can be taken as absolute. It's never entirely your fault, and it's never entirely someone else's. You're never absolutely powerful and never absolutely helpless. After all the main problem is suffering from something, and those videos try to provide a clue how to help that. If all you're hearing is "this is all your fault", you're doing it wrong. But claiming those people are deliberately lying is a complete delusion and clearly helps no one.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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EZGames69 wrote:
feos, I think you should watch these videos first, because from what I can tell they have nothing to do with dealing with depression at all. The 2nd video is blaming the person in question for having issues, this is not a good way to help someone dealing with depression.
I watched the second one since it's short enough. I live by this principle for a lot of years. In some situations, the problem can not be fixed by the person who is suffering from it. Someone else can be the reason of that problem, it happens all the time, which is why the world is known for being so unfair. But by simply blaming others, the problem won't fix itself, and most certainly it won't fix the suffering. What fixes the suffering is improving yourself. If I'm imperfect, then my actions could have been the reason of at least some of my problems. And if at least some of it was my fault, then by all means I can try and improve myself. I can be doing what I can, and proportionally, at least some part of the problem can be fixed. This gives hope, cures the devastating feeling of pointless unfairness of reality. This has been my approach to life, both real and internet. All I'm saying in this thread is solely my personal experience. Sometimes a video I've watched happens to emphasize what I know, or even gives me clues I didn't know about. When it happens, I post such a video here. Does any of this sound like a good way to help someone dealing with depression?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
