Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Your points were discussed together with adelikat and myself on IRC two weeks ago, you were there at the time, not sure why you don't remember this. Not being firm on these point will just have a continual stream of nice looking but badly emulated runs continuing to be made.
We are rejecting all of Snes9x 1.4x, unless it was asked prior to the cut off date for a continuance, or it is clear that it was done well before then. We came up with a continuance system to allow for exceptions, and to explicitly make it clear that runs were made before hand. If, and only if, there's enough evidence to show a run was primarily made before the cut off, then we can be lenient.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Nach, Mothryas, Adelikat,
Thank you for finally making this firm decision. I only wish it had been done sooner... but it's done now and that's what matters.
Now will come the seemingly endless bitchfest about the decision... I am glad one was made. It had to be made. Progress can not continue in the right direction otherwise.
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
Just another random gamer
----
<OmnipotentEntity> How do you people get bored in the span of 10 seconds? Worst ADD ever.
Your points were discussed together with adelikat and myself on IRC two weeks ago, you were there at the time, not sure why you don't remember this.
Because I posted it on Forum for people to read and discuss whenever they have time, not only when they are lucky enough to be witnesses of admins randomly chatting. Also, on Forums one can better weight his words before posting. There's also cool markup.
So what shall I do to Doremi? It was proven to be in progress long before the deprecation events. The same situation as here:
Nach wrote:
Regarding using a deprecated emulator, there really needs to be serious weight put into considering rejecting this. Especially considering that this uses 1.4x and not even 1.5x. However, I reviewed the various discussion threads, and I see Mister mentioned active work on this hack and others well within the continuance time frame. I also see, that for other TASs, others asked for continuances on Mister's behalf, as it seems he wasn't sure if hacks needed them. Since we know ISM and Mister were working on this for a while, and aren't just trying to mess with the system, and springing upon us a run started after the allotted time, I'm willing to be more lenient and consider this run as going along with the "spirit" of the continuance system.
Also, what logics were used when this run was accepted? And how about the runs that sync on bsnes core? The rules do not mention the latter case. Explain these positive precedents to us please.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If a run can be converted from a deprecated emulator to non-deprecated, then it is as if the run has been made with the non-deprecated. Ensure the published encode uses the non-deprecated emulator, and that a non-deprecated movie file is available.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
feos wrote:
So what shall I do to Doremi? It was proven to be in progress long before the deprecation events. The same situation as here
Yeah, I realized I forgot to add a bit about movies made before the cutoff point. I've added it to the rules post now.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 1466
Location: Not playing Puyo Tetris
I have to ask, is there any other version of Snes9x older then then 1.43 that allowed movie recording? I want to make sure that clever users can't use an older version of Snes9x.
When TAS does Quake 1, SDA will declare war.
The Prince doth arrive he doth please.
So, just to clarify: Say, theoretically, a new Super Mario World any% run performed on 1.43 is submitted that beats the predecessor, it'll be rejected and TASVideos will keep the (slower) run performed on the same emulator?
Optionally, replace "Super Mario World" and "any%" with any other popular game/branch performed on 1.43.
I'll relent and say that many points about using 1.43 against Bizhawk/lsnes can be refuted (subjectively). But there's one reason in particular that makes me want to keep using 1.43: For such a contested game, we need to compare the runs very closely. With emulator differences it may be tough for us to see how much time is actually saved/lost, particularly since we normally use the comparison script or watch emulators side by side and some improvements are heavily reliant on the game's frame rules or lag differences, which may only apply to Snes9x. Aside from this, we also have many Lua scripts we use that cannot be easily converted.
Not expecting a response from this besides "tough", just mentioning why it seems difficult for some of us to move to those emulators. I've lost all motivation for TASing since the switch, anyway (but not because of it).
I'm not going to argue against the decision.
Atma wrote:
when it comes to tasing, system speed is not really relevant, as things are done frame by frame
This sentence sounds obvious, but it is not true.
It isn't the right topic to discuss it though. But in short, while making a TAS you balance between short-term and long-term criteria of optimality. If you only look at the nearest frames, you'll quickly degrade into greedy decisions (see greedy algorithm). So, to remain clever you must rewatch/retest nearest segments and analyse middle-term results as often as the situation requires, instead of adapting to emulator pace.
Atma wrote:
That makes me think of people using ie6 despite better browsers being available, simply because it's where their comfort zone lies.
I know what you mean, sometimes you have to do a little push to help people overcome laziness. It's just that administration often becomes too enthusiastic in this kind of coaching.
BTW, those new browsers also provided new features like tabbed interface (in addition to the stuff only useful to web developers). So it was still win-win for both users and developers, it wasn't one-sided.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
We should all think like boct1584 and set a good example for our members by posting something similar like this:
boct1584 wrote:
Before you keep going, if you plan to, be aware that v1.43 is not allowed any more.
This helps the community to spread the word for unaware members. Thank you boct1584.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Always glad to spread awareness. Hate to see a good TAS rejected because the author wasn't aware of a new rule.
Maybe this topic title should be edited to state that 1.43 is fully obsolete now?
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
boct1584 wrote:
Maybe this topic title should be edited to state that 1.43 is fully obsolete now?
Done.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I still think Turrican can be unrejected since it was submitted before the final date.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I still think Turrican can be unrejected since it was submitted before the final date.
You mean http://tasvideos.org/3939S.html ? It was submitted on 2013-04-02. The final date was 2012-12-31. There is also no evidence on the forum that the movie was worked on before that date.
So unfortunately it must be rejected, by the rule.
What would the ruling be if someone wanted to TAS a super mario world romhack that crashed in bizhawk/lsnes due to a physically impossible echo buffer size that snes9x allows?
(H)alf of the hacks they provide do not run on an actual SNES, let alone on accurate emulators. This is because of a flawed tool known as addmusic. It was designed to allow hackers to insert new music tracks, but it was developed with and tested against an inaccurate emulator. One that cheated when it came to DSP sound emulation. The echo effect of the SNES DSP works by writing previous results into RAM, in order to mix with them later. This addmusic tool did not know this, because the emulator did not do this. As a result, impossible values were used for echo buffer sizes, which on real hardware and accurate emulators, results in all of the APU's RAM (and thus, program code and samples), being overwritten—crashing the game.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2174
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Patashu wrote:
What would the ruling be if someone wanted to TAS a super mario world romhack that crashed in bizhawk/lsnes due to a physically impossible echo buffer size that snes9x allows?
(H)alf of the hacks they provide do not run on an actual SNES, let alone on accurate emulators. This is because of a flawed tool known as addmusic. It was designed to allow hackers to insert new music tracks, but it was developed with and tested against an inaccurate emulator. One that cheated when it came to DSP sound emulation. The echo effect of the SNES DSP works by writing previous results into RAM, in order to mix with them later. This addmusic tool did not know this, because the emulator did not do this. As a result, impossible values were used for echo buffer sizes, which on real hardware and accurate emulators, results in all of the APU's RAM (and thus, program code and samples), being overwritten—crashing the game.
I have brought up this issue a few times when there has been a SNES game hack submitted that has come under questioning due to the SNES9x deprecation but I have not seen any acknowledgement that my posts have been taken into consideration even though they were most likely read.
In the case of hacks that are not designed to be run on the original console, and will then not work in BizHawk or lsnes, I think that we must allow them to be TASed on SNES9x if they are considered worthy entertainment-wise.
What would the ruling be if someone wanted to TAS a super mario world romhack that crashed in bizhawk/lsnes due to a physically impossible echo buffer size that snes9x allows?
Does it work with snes9x 1.51? Snes9x v1.51 is, for the time being, still accepted.
In my opinion, if a hack is considered acceptable/good and doesn't run on real hardware, the best/most accurate emulator capable of running it should be considered the actual console, thus meaning its as accurate as possible.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Location: Tennessee
Patashu wrote:
What would the ruling be if someone wanted to TAS a super mario world romhack that crashed in bizhawk/lsnes due to a physically impossible echo buffer size that snes9x allows?
I think if the hack depends on poor emulation to work, then I most likely would not be in favor of approving a submission of such.
May I still use 1.43 if this version emulates better than 1.51+? My pc can't run bizhawk or lsnes fast enough unfortunately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le394VSnQwM (Super Mario RPG comparison)
May I still use 1.43 if this version emulates better than 1.51+? My pc can't run bizhawk or lsnes fast enough unfortunately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le394VSnQwM (Super Mario RPG comparison)
lsnes is pretty small,maybe you should ask for help on the forums(even my horrible computer can run it)
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
