Post subject: Authorship disputes (split. 7126S Ghosts 'n Goblins)
Arc
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MOD EDIT: Posts split from thread: Thread #22640 -Mothrayas
Coauthor
EZGames69
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Arc wrote:
Coauthor
What do you mean?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
Arc wrote:
Coauthor
What do you mean?
If DreamYao modified the current publication for this game in this submission, then Arc (and probably Koh1fds) needs to be credited.
c-square wrote:
Yes, standard runs are needed and very appreciated here too
Dylon Stejakoski wrote:
Me and the boys starting over our games of choice for the infinityieth time in a row because of just-found optimizations
^ Why I don't have any submissions despite being on the forums for years now...
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Arc wrote:
Coauthor
This looks like completely unique input to me.
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Arc wrote:
Coauthor
DreamYao's input is always created from scratch even when an improvement is found, so provide evidence to your claim. Getting a temp encode up, and claiming for publication.
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I didn't use "Arc" movies, I created them from scratch
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Spikestuff wrote:
Arc wrote:
Coauthor
DreamYao's input is always created from scratch even when an improvement is found, so provide evidence to your claim. Getting a temp encode up, and claiming for publication.
Thank you for your coding
Arc
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It's not hard to give credit. All it takes is "& Arc." I always properly credit people who contribute to my movies even though I really worked on them alone, because I am not a plagiarist. My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added. DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts. It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie. He improved on my work.
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Can you provide proof that this movie used your inputs? Otherwise I WILL make a comparison encode of this movie. Edit: but also, why aren’t you also saying Koh1fds should be coauthored? Did they not also use their ideas and tricks in the previous TAS?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Arc wrote:
It's not hard to give credit. All it takes is "& Arc." I always properly credit people who contribute to my movies even though I really worked on them alone, because I am not a plagiarist.
Odd that you're only focusing on yourself Arc, if this was really using your input it should state ", Arc & Koh1fds". Also that's fine, neither is DreamYao's input I threw it in a diff checker and there are differences to both your methods and the only times they matched is when you're both walking. Kinda saved myself time since I did ask:
Spikestuff wrote:
so provide evidence to your claim.
Arc wrote:
My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added.
You can claim that tricks and techniques but it doesn't warrant yourself credit for co-author only an acknowledgement. Don't pull a gia or a Xipo for that matter.
Arc wrote:
DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts.
Cool, and you had 12 years to make your improvement to your previous movie.
Arc wrote:
It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie.
Cause they did.
Arc wrote:
He improved on my work.
Yes, and they did it from scratch with no help from you whatsoever. Like that's the entire point of creating the input from scratch.
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Spikestuff,don't mention that thing which make me sad and anger.I have to point out,that thing is completely different from this thing,since submitter had promised we are co-author instead of I asked submitter to add my name.I sympathize with Arc,since I have the same experience with Arc.But,to an 8 minutes movie,3 seconds improvement is not a mini improvement,there are some new great tricks in this run.I have reason to believe that this is DreamYao's personal work,unless DreamYao approves co-work.
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Arc wrote:
It's not hard to give credit.
Where in Movie Rules on co-authorship is it a matter of being hard or not hard?
Arc wrote:
My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added.
CC BY 2.0 doesn't mention "ideas" or "techniques" though.
Arc wrote:
DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts. It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie. He improved on my work.
It's ridiculous to prove a claim just by stating that the opposite feels ridiculous. It's ridiculous to see that as a reason to assume bad faith and mindread, while also demanding something one hasn't proven (yet) to have deserved. DreamYao didn't wait for 17 years just to take over the movie and the credits. He improved it after 5 years of no progress from you or anyone else. He only joined in 2019 and immediately started working on NES Batman. Look whose movie was improved. Not a lot of people are able to beat Aglar's times. When other people are not happy with new improvements, they just beat them over again. And if this run is still improvable, the best way to resolve this is a framewar. Then all the participants can be credited. But so far, there's no information about Arc explicitly helping DreamYao in any way. And no information about blatant copy-paste. We respect when someone has built something from scratch, and we respect when someone whose input wasn't directly used is still credited due to massive contribution of some other kind. But we can not demand that co-authors are added if CC-BY-2.0 is not violated. If your argument is "his movie is faster than mine therefore he did look at my movie as a reference, therefore I should be credited", it's not how we handle improvements that don't contain copy-paste. Otherwise with every new movie the list of authors would be growing indefinitely.
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Arc, you seemed to be fine taking all the credit on Karnov despite the fact that the RTA runners found the bulk of the improvements. What makes this so different other than the fact that you happen to be on the receiving end? If this is purely a matter of giving any credit at all, then the right thing to do here would simply be asking DreamYao to thank you in the submission text, not outright demanding co-authorship despite having 0 involvement with the input.
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Arc
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I submit movies allowing others to use my ideas as long as credit is given, per CC. Even if it were public domain, there is still plagiarism protection. "Romeo & Juliet by DreamYao" would be plagiarism of Shakespeare's work; public domain just gives DreamYao the right to publish "Romeo & Juliet by Shakespeare." Likewise, you cannot steal the entire plot, setting, conflict, and structure of R&J and claim it is your own work just because you changed the characters' names. In proper English, the stage 6 submission text would say, "I had to wait 10 frames so that I could use the solution that Arc already found." No, DreamYao did not independently come up with the house escape, stage 4 X-position boost, big guy boost, etc. He did not just compare times to my movie as a reference. If you say he independently created the movie "from scratch," you are saying his movie would be as optimized as it is even if no previous GnG movies existed. If Koh1fds or hirexen (Karnov) want to make a claim of authorship, that is fine with me. Plagiarism is passing off another person's ideas as your own without attribution; TASVideos does not have the authority to redefine this concept. Plagiarism is easy to identify with these 3 steps: Is the creator aware of the source material? (Yes) Did the creator take ideas from the source material? (Yes) Did the creator give credit to the source material? (No)
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Arc wrote:
I submit movies allowing others to use my ideas as long as credit is given, per CC.
I'm still waiting for quotes from CC-BY-2.0 where it talks about ideas.
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is passing off another person's ideas as your own without attribution; TASVideos does not have the authority to redefine this concept.
I'm still waiting for examples of input copy-paste contained in this movie. Because input is what we submit, judge, encode, and publish. We don't submit or encode ideas. Did you miss my link to our Movie Rules where they talk about co-authorship?
Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is easy to identify with these 3 steps: Is the creator aware of the source material? (Yes) Did the creator take ideas from the source material? (Yes) Did the creator give credit to the source material? (No)
Where in the Movie Rules did you find that definition?
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Arc wrote:
Plagiarism is passing off another person's ideas as your own without attribution;
In #4937: Arc, Alyosha's NES Ghosts 'n Goblins in 08:18.03 you note in stage 3, "I spent a long time looking for the best way until Alyosha suggested using the left-right move" which saved a few seconds. Then in #5158: Arc, Koh1fds's NES Ghosts 'n Goblins in 08:07.55 you note that stages 1-4 are the same, and the same left-right movement gets used (encode times: 04:08 vs 04:04 respectively). Yet you no longer listed Alyosha as a co-author, nor did you make an explicit note that you used Alyosha's idea. Instead you just gave a thanks for "creative assistance". So, according to your arguments presented in this thread, did you commit plagiarism too? Or is just saying a generic thank you, enough credit for using someone else's idea? If yes to the latter question, where do you draw the line for co-authorship?
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Quoting from Nach's judgement of #5975: HappyLee, Mars608's NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless" in 18:36.78:
Nach wrote:
Regarding the authors of this run, our practice has always been to list as authors those who actually contributed input to the current run itself. If authors were just a collection of who contributed ideas, then I should be credited as being an author of every single warpless run since [262] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless" by Phil, Genisto in 18:59.28 as it was my idea to get a fire flower and use it to kill Bowser 7 times. As I've never been credited as a co-author, Phil, Genisto, klmz and others have not been credited as co-authors by later authors, then it makes no sense to credit myself, them, or MrWint and his bot for this submission as co-authors either. We even had a case where someone contributed 2 screens worth of input out of well over a hundred, and got a "thank you" but not a co-authorship. So while MrWint undoubtedly contributed ideas to this run in some minor but crucial aspect, he is not an author of it.
See, this is how things always have worked. If you don't like the fact that your name isn't in the fastest movie anymore, then you should simply improve the movie again, like HappyLee did in that case.
Arc wrote:
It's not hard to give credit. All it takes is "& Arc." I always properly credit people who contribute to my movies even though I really worked on them alone, because I am not a plagiarist. My ideas and techniques are used in nearly all parts of this movie, with a few optimizations added. DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts. It is ridiculous to believe that DreamYao completely independently created this movie. He improved on my work.
No one plagiarised anything. Everyone know that new movies make use of the ammassed discoveries of other people from the past, it's an obvious fact. Giving coauthorship for anything that isn't input data, it's a simple matter of courtesy, and you can't require courtesy.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: ThunderAxe31#1512 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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Arc wrote:
Did the creator give credit to the source material? (No)
TASVideoAgent wrote:
At this stage, the boss also lost frames, mainly due to the action trajectory of the boss. At different times, the action track of meeting boss is different“ The "arc" boos combat is already the best solution and cannot be optimized. But due to bad luck, I had to stay at 10 + frames below. To get the same trajectory. There's no other way. I've tried to change the boss's fighting strategy, and I can't get frames
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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You know why it's fine that they didn't thank you in the submission text (even though EZGames69 requotes the submission text and puts emphasis your alias)? Cause their first language isn't English. Which honestly, is fine (but your alias is mentioned, and you are thanked). It's all about you Arc, even though it isn't. Just to repeat one of your comments.
Spikestuff wrote:
Arc wrote:
DreamYao waited until I had done all the hard work researching and discovering optimal manipulations, routes, tricks, etc throughout 11 TAS versions in 12 years and then swooped in to take all the credit for himself by slightly improving a few parts.
Cool, and you had 12 years to make your improvement to your previous movie.
You've provided no evidence of direct plagiarism since your first claim as the input was made from scratch and you were credited in the submission text as a thanks. Now move on. Someone split this off and make sure not to hit the comments that are only talking about the work DreamYao made.
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Arc
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Any dictionary site will inform you that plagiarism is passing off someone else's ideas as your own without credit, which is generally not acceptable anywhere in the Western world, except on this website, evidently. In reply to yet another tu quoque attempt, Alyosha specifically wrote that he didn't want authorship credit. Speaking of Alyosha—whom I have great respect for—he is an example of someone who always gives other people proper credit when he uses their ideas, which should be standard behavior. After he credited me as coauthor in his Super Pitfall improvement, we worked together and made an even better movie. This is about the intellectual property rights of everyone on the site, not just me. I have in fact defended someone else's work on the exact same principle: Post #495619 If the policy of the site really is that uncredited theft of ideas is acceptable and only input matters, then there is nothing stopping people from directly copying input, making it look "different enough" by changing the timing of inconsequential movements/jumps (it is now their own "original input"), finding 1 frame of improvement at the end, and claiming it as their own work. There is also a disincentive to provide any substance in submission text, because are just giving someone else a how-to guide to stealing your work without credit. (Of course, ideally people would both improve your work and properly credit you for your contribution to encourage collaboration and an optimal movie, but again the whole point here is that this site's stance on plagiarism creates a bad faith environment with the apparent justification that crediting too many people, even when they deserve it, is somehow bad.)
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Arc wrote:
If the policy of the site really is that uncredited theft of ideas is acceptable and only input matters
By your logic no one is ever allowed to watch the movie they want to beat, because watching any part of that movie will automatically result in stealing ideas. So by your logic, every new iteration of any given branch is obliged to list all the previous authors who worked on that game. Do you provide any options for people who actually invented something on their own independently? How do they prove it's not stolen? Yeah, by your logic they are obliged to prove their innocence, otherwise it's automatically plagiarism.
Arc wrote:
the whole point here is that this site's stance on plagiarism creates a bad faith environment with the apparent justification that crediting too many people, even when they deserve it, is somehow bad.)
You haven't even checked, have you?
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Arc, if you were writing an essay and you used a source on the internet to gather some of the information for it, would you be satisfied crediting them in the bibliography, or would it be necessary to attach their authorship to the essay as well?
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So Arc, are you going to suggest that your name be added to [692] NES Ghosts 'n Goblins by GuanoBowl in 17:21.75? Because this is the only other movie that was published without your name on it. You didn’t have ANY issues with not being co-author, so why is it that all these years later it’s suddenly a massive issue? Be consistent.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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In your opinion, no one can beat his own movie except himself. Improving a movie always chooses the best strategy. Of course, if we don't allow us to choose the same strategy as the movie, the movie will never be improved. If you think you can beat the movie, please beat it, I won't say you plagiarize. I will praise you and let me know that there are still shortcomings in this film.
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Arc wrote:
This is about the intellectual property rights of everyone on the site, not just me. I have in fact defended someone else's work on the exact same principle: Post #495619
Which, by the way, was an extremely weird case to make (both there and here) because you suggest to credit Aglar for the trick allegedly discovered by Kenny which by your own admission defined Aglar's TAS, to which a natural response would be: wait, how does that work? Shouldn't it have rather been that Aglar had to credit Kenny if it wasn't his own discovery? There is some merit to suggesting that "signature" tricks deserve to be credited, provided there is a way to establish whose signature trick it is. However, it would be ludicrous to insist it has to be done via co-authorship. Otherwise every SMB1 TAS after 2007 would have to co-author klmz for the flagpole glitch, every Super Metroid TAS after 2004 would have to co-author Michael Flatley for arm-pumping, and so on, and so forth. See where I'm going with it? And while we're on this topic, can you even describe with certainty and beyond rational doubt what your "signature" trick or strategy is that had never existed prior to your involvement in running this game and can be seen in DreamYao's submission—to a large enough extent that it can be considered a co-authorship-worthy contribution?
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