Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
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Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
Based on Thread #22710: Standard Class Discussion (formerly Vault Expansion) we will be reworking in the following manner:
1) Vault will be replaced by Standard, which will have no icon, and a player point multiplier of 1 (as opposed to the vault 0.75) (Note: Standard is just a technical name, it won't have a name at all, for instance, submissions are not going to be "accepted to Standard", just accepted in general
2) Moons will no longer be based on entertainment value/judgement if they qualify for standard. Instead they will be in standard (will retroactively do this for existing publications)
3) Acceptable branches in standard will be expanded to the following, and will not require entertainment value to qualify:
Pure fastest completion (GEG, ACE, Corruption, etc)
Warps (or fastest "intended" completion)
Warpless/All levels (warps are an intended shortcut so not using them counts as an objective goal)
100% (assuming it can be defined objectively)
Score attack (an objective goal with room for improvement in the same vein as fastest completion)
4) Any branch or goal that is not acceptable for standard can be published to moons if it provides entertainment value (audience reception during submission)
Note that this is not necessarily the end of the process, but an overdue incremental step towards further expansions. The discussion on further improvements is welcome but should happen in the topic linked above. Posts here should be directed to specifically and steps necessary to achieve these goals
This will be a process that will be done in steps and we will use this post as a checklist for todo items.
[x] Technical feasibility test (can the site code accommodate these changes) (Result: yes!)
[x] Update tiers database table
[x] Create Standard page
[x] Update Moons page
[x] Update Tiers page with new links and documentation
[x] Front page (consolidate to single publications list)
[ ] Movies page (consolidate many links)
[x] Move or delete Vault page (may want to keep it for historical purposes)
[ ] Update references to the Vault page
[x] Migrate publications from moons to standard that qualify
[x] Update movie rules
[x] Set up a Review thread to unreject potential submissions that now qualify under new rules (Done: Thread #22780: Revisiting rejected submissions due to rule changes)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2792
Location: Northern California
A few things I'd like to add:
1. "Standard" is not going to be the new official name for Vault, it's just a technical term for the site. There most likely won't be a name at all: Movies aren't going to be "accepted to Standard", they're just going to be accepted in general.
2. We're going to be moving away from using "Tier" to refer to where runs are on the site, as one of the reasons behind our decision to revamp Vault was to remove the stigma that it's "worse" than Moons and Stars. We're currently going with "Class", but are welcoming suggestions.
3. The change to the player point modifier is already in place, anyone with a published Vault run should have a higher score than before. I personally gained like 20 points from it, so this is clearly a positive change. When we finally implement the Tool-Assisted Store, where you can trade in your player points for prizes, I'm going to get an extra spider ring!
4. ACE/Corruption stuff was accidentally excluded from the list in the OP, and I should also also the list in the OP is not the definitive final list for what's acceptable. That's still being worked on in the original proposal thread, so it will continue to expand.
I've also got some things to say on some of the checklist items:
[ ] Create Standard page
[ ] Update Moons page
[ ] Update Tiers page with new links and documentation
I have drafts for these, once more things are finalized and the relevant changes are made we should be ready to go live with it very soon.
[ ] Move or delete Vault page (may want to keep it for historical purposes)
I would definitely like to keep it for historical purposes, of course with a few edits made to reflect that this is no longer our working system.
[ ] Migrate publications from moons to standard that quality
Good thing I've already set up a tier change thread several years ago! This is going to be a majorly daunting task due to the sheer number of movies that need to be looked through, not to mention that there still may be mistiered movies to begin with. We'll most likely do a manual pass first once the changes are actually in place, but after that we can use the thread for the community to catch anything that might've slipped by.
[ ] Update movie rules
This is already something we're doing! moozooh's been going through and fixing a lot of things, rewording things for conciseness and clarity and removing some outdated rules, so these updates should also be pretty swift once we get everything finalized. I've also been meaning to make a thread for discussing further changes to the rules in general, but that can wait until after we're finished with this.
[ ] Review rejected submissions and unreject potential submissions that now quality under new rules
We've set up a thread for unrejections already, but as I said above (and as that thread says itself), we'll be doing a manual pass first before opening it up to the community.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
The future plan is to limit Moons only to goals that are
inherently subjective and abstract
different enough from other branches
entertaining
For example, a Playaround consists of arbitrary artistic decisions and can't be objectively measured in a meaningful way. We have to rely on subjective tastes of the viewers, which is why it needs to be entertaining.
Similarly, a Demonstration is anything that isn't described by existing standard goals, so there's infinite room for what can be done, but we need to only publish things that stand out in terms of content and entertainment value.
There will be a discussion on which movie goals should be acceptable to Standard, and which should remain dependent on entertainment.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'll add my own separate todo:
[ ]Update references to obsolete terminology or systems
[x]Create changelog of sorts
I can handle the last one for sure once we have fully agreed upon the changes we're making, might need help with the former.
adelikat can merge this into his if he wants.
Should this also be announcements worthy once we're pretty much good to go?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Through a bunch of discussion it has been decided that the sanest way to implement this would be to start with the Vault goals of fastest completion and full completion, and then once we finish transitioning everything over, we will start adding new goals incrementally. We tried discussing initial categories all at once but it just led to a lot of confusion. Additionally by doing this in waves, we only have to rejudge for one goal at a time instead of all at once.
I apologize to anyone who hoped to see unrejections right away but its best to approach things in an orderly fashion.
We will begin adjusting site pages accordingly.
EDIT: News post done.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
So under the new system, what happens to the Newcomer tag, as well as the Gruefood Delight tag?
Because they both sound like a class of movie; and Newcomer kind-of-sort-of overlaps with stars; and Gruefood Delight kind-of-sort-of overlaps with the (new definition of) moons. Or perhaps they don't, and a couple lines of text should be added to explain the difference and why these aren't a class.
Gruefood delight isn't even a tag or anything similar, it's just a page full of gruefood movies that people found interesting. Classes are for publication.
Newcomers is slightly different, might need some discussion on that one.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Right, rather than parametric categories to search by, they are curated lists for which runs are selected manually.
As is always the case with significant rule changes, all relevant rejected submissions will be re-evaluated to see if they meet the new requirements; if they do, they will be accepted and published, so there's a high chance that GD will lose some more entries in the near future.
The revamp is meant to open the site to more potential goal choices; the list of newcomer recommendations still depends on the quality and entertainment value of movies rather than their goal choice per se, so it would be an entirely different discussion as to which of them will make the cut.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2792
Location: Northern California
Radiant wrote:
moozooh wrote:
Right, rather than parametric categories to search by, they are curated lists for which runs are selected manually.
But so is Stars.
Stars and Newcomer Recs are actively curated lists, yes, but Gruefood Delight is just a wiki page anyone can edit with whatever they want. It was never meant to be an official thing: Heck, it can't even be a tag since nothing in it has been published.
Stars and Newcomers are definitely things that need some discussion, though. They're not super high priority, but they will be discussed and figured out during the revamp, for sure.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Updating movie rules to account for the changes. If anyone has any plans of making edits to the movie rules page before I finish, let me know otherwise I might accidentally revert your edit in the massive changes I will be making.
EDIT: Finished with changes to Movie Rules and to Submission Instructions, will be looking into additional wiki pages that need changing.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Gruefood Delight is just a wiki page anyone can edit with whatever they want. It was never meant to be an official thing: Heck, it can't even be a tag since nothing in it has been published.
I may be missing something here, but Gruefood Delight starts with a link to its curator thread , and I do not have the privilege to edit it (and I infer that neither do most users).
I'll grant that it's clearly more of a joke than an official thing, but it certainly looks like a curated list. The same goes for Obsoletely Fabulous, and "Alden's Exhibitions".
And for that matter, Notable Improvements. I do see that for technical reasons, NI is a tag and OF/GD are wiki pages. This is all from the "special categories" tab on the movies page.
Judge Guidelines updated to reflect changes.
EDIT: Looks like the publisher guidelines has a small section dedicated to Tier. I'm unsure about updating it until the publisher form itself refers to classes rather than tiers. Same with Wiki: EncodingGuide/PublicationManual.
Wiki: MovieTokens is a similar issue as is Wiki: TextFormattingRules/ListOfModules.
EDIT2: also Wiki: TierMaintenanceLog I'm unsure about
EDIT3: I think most references to Vault and Tiers are edited out besides the types of stuff I mentioned above, User pages and the like, Submissions (duh), and alternate language variants. Also can definitely check off "Update Movie Rules"
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
We seem to have concluded with the bulk moving of movies, we're working on manually determining the rest.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Score attacks are allowed as an objective goal now?
I remember putting effort into getting good scoring rules down.
I've not been following much happening with the site recently, but the score attack being listed as one of the criteria came as a surprise to me. No idea if that thread would help define any rules around scoring TASes, but it's a piece of history I remember.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2792
Location: Northern California
Score attack is a planned goal for the future (see this post for more details on the rollout plan), so currently no, but eventually it will be. Having a consistent set of rules for it in advance will definitely help, though! There's already some discussion on the score attack goal in this thread, I'd highly recommend adding to it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 | CohostwarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Did a manual pass of the entire movie list, still some that need additional discussion. Other then that, it's just removing the few remaining references to "Vault" and "tiers" and doing whatever movie page links consolidation that still needs to be done.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Movie Rules / History page created. Should make it easier for people to catch up on the latest rule changes that way.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I think that we're basically done sorting out things between classes. If anyone finds anything off, post in the Class changes thread. Otherwise, I think we're pretty much good to add a new goal.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
New goal accepted to standard, forgoes major skip glitch.
To Do:
[x] Reclass existing runs
[ ] Update obsoleted runs
[ ] Unreject runs that qualify
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I used to consider the fastest-completion flag as useless, but after the recent changes I think it's actually crucial. I also suggest to implement flags for denoting full-completion and forgoes major skip glitch. I know that it's already showed by movie tags, but I think that a flag would do the job better, for the sake of making the branch list look clearer.
Fastest completion flag only works because it's not directly tied to anything already present in specific goals expressed by tags. It's a meta concept, and new branches may steal it. If people don't pay attention to tags, it means they don't see their meaning fully, at least they aren't aware of how it changed recently. Tags are definitive for class-eligibility. Duplicating their meaning with flags will add complexity and visual clutter eventually, and it'd be hard to explain the functional benefit from having the same thing represented twice everywhere.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Fastest completion flag only works because it's not directly tied to anything already present in specific goals expressed by tags. It's a meta concept, and new branches may steal it. If people don't pay attention to tags, it means they don't see their meaning fully, at least they aren't aware of how it changed recently. Tags are definitive for class-eligibility. Duplicating their meaning with flags will add complexity and visual clutter eventually, and it'd be hard to explain the functional benefit from having the same thing represented twice everywhere.
No, I'm not suggesting to duplicate their meaning, I'm asking to replace these two tags altogether with two new flags. Since these two affect class-eligibility as you wrote, that's exactly why they should be given special emphasis, and not being put together with trivial aspects of a movie, that are all the other tags.
Also, I don't think that "people don't pay attention" when the interface simply is cluttered and confusing, and could be improved in many ways.
