Fortranm
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Samsara wrote:
Mega Man 2: A lot of the Mega Man runs are starting to feel the same to me right now. While this is a classic run, it doesn't do a WHOLE lot to make it stand out from the rest. I would honestly prefer to see the original game's TAS replace it for the DelayStageClear shenanigans and the Magnet Beam abuse, but it's not a glowing recommendation from me.
How about [871] NES Mega Man 3, 4, 5 & 6 by Baxter & AngerFist in 39:06.92 or [1894] SNES Mega Man X & Mega Man X2 & Mega Man X3 "300%" by agwawaf in 43:51.02? They might be a little outdated at this point though.
Warp wrote:
- Some of them should be relatively (or even completely) glitch-free, but clearly show absolute superhuman "skill", that clearly no human should be capable of. In other words, showcase the very essence of tool-assistance.
[3134] GB Pokémon: Blue and Red Version "Coop Diploma" by MrWint in 3:48:04.10 This is the first one comes to my mind, but I guess it's too long.
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Samsara wrote:
Counterpoint: [3205] N64 F-Zero X "Jack Cup, Time Trial" by jagg2zero in 07:09.37
Yeah, one of the 4 racing games with a star, as I mentioned. A full F-Zero X TAS would also be a very good candidate for the newcomer tier.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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Imho, The four-games-at-the-same-time should definitely be in RTN because of how bizarrely over-the-top it is. I'm fine with adding Mario Kart because it's really a different genre, but I do feel we should take out all except one of the Mario platformer runs. Other things I suggest to add,
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About diversity. I can agree with that right now, there's too much of similar stuff in there. RTS/RPG. I suggest one of these: [1297] SNES EarthBound by pirohiko in 1:10:00.95 [2592] SNES Chrono Trigger by keylie in 2:17:08.86 Each of them has better rating than Warcraft, so we should consider that factor. Also, we should pick one FPS, probably not necessarily Doom, ratings would help as well. Regarding Fightings, see this: http://tasvideos.org/Movies-C9010Y-RatingE.html I'd add one of those too. About current runs.
  • SMB walkathon does feel like it's the weakest one indeed.
  • SMB3 "warps" is so traditional it's probably not revolutionary anymore.
  • Super Metroid "RBO" is a tough one, I'd say it's really really good, see the first page of this thread for the reasons.
  • SM64 "0 star" - yeah, probably, same as SMB3 "warps".
  • Majora's Mask - if we drop SM64, we'd need at least one 3D platform there.
  • Mega Man 2 - traditionally cool run, quite obvious what it has to offer, but I would personally prefer Minus Infinity. Because it has glitches, it has planning, it has weapon management and stuff. Or maybe MM1, its techniques have been there for quite a while, so it won't look so absurd anymore I guess, like it did back when it was done. Or MMX "threesome".
  • Sonic 3 - well, yeah, same thing over and over, even though it's a great game and a nice branch, but it seems to have too many weak spots.
  • SMB3 "ACE" - NO FUCKING DOUBT! This has nothing to do with Mario, it's a Total Control thing, there's no way it is replaced with anything other. Pi? LOL, Pi is not even close to that level.
  • Gradius - unsure anymore. I'd drop it if we really need the vacant place.
  • Gimmick! - alright, we can keep it.
  • The first 5 Samsara mentioned - No doubt either.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I feel like including one of the SNES Mega Man X games would be a good choice, as there's a good number of constant frame tricks, and they don't go overboard with out of bounds clipping or other early stage ending tricks. X1 has some nice stuff with the spike wall ascent and the boomerang tricks for grabbing off screen items and moving platforms, for example, but there's something from all 3 that's enough to show "this is a TAS".
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
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Now that I have some more time, let me add my 0.02 $ about a few of the current newcomer TASes: Majoras Mask In my opinion, it's the strongest 3D Zelda run submitted to this site, so it was the right decision to add it to this tier. But as good as it may was back then, we can't deny that it's massively outdated. I'd still suggest to keep it in the tier until the improvement, that is currently being worked on, gets submitted. If that new version is just as entertaining, replace it, if not, make room for another 3D title. SM64 0 star is one of those categories that is ideal to show off to people that are unfamiliar with TASing and I guess that's what this tier is all about. The problem is that the category itself gets old quickly once you're past that moment of "WTF did they just skip straight to Bowser?!". 120 or 70 star are offering much more variety. It's a weird example of a category that is technically perfect to show off TASing to newcomers, but isn't that popular among the community. Kind of a dilemma... Super Metroid I think RBO is actually an ideal category for this tier. The name alone catches your interest, "How the hell do they beat the game backwards?". It's obviously not as crazy as Hyper Princess Pitch with its "impossible" difficulty, but to anyone who isn't already an SM runner, this concept will come off just as interesting. SMB1 Another type of challenge run, but this one is the least interesting, in my opinion. It definitely has cool stuff, but it's not enough compared to its length. So if you're looking for a TAS to drop from the tier, this one would be my first suggestion.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
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http://tasvideos.org/3555S.html this is short and obvious enough to show it was TASed,even though it's more of a demo than a game
TAS i'm interested: megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched fighting games with speed goals in general
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Hm, this discussion appears to have stalled. Would it help to make a concrete proposal for going forward? I suggest that on the Recommended For Newcomers list, SMB3 Warps should be replaced with Marvel Vs Capcom (to be clear, that's SMB3 Warps and not SMB3 ACE). Specifically, [2098] Arcade Marvel vs. Capcom "playaround" by SDR in 25:37.70. First, this is a popular run in Star Tier; and second, its genre (fighting games) and platform (arcade) are not currently represented in the RFN list. Conversely, SMB3 Warps is pointed out by several people in this thread as one of the less interesting runs on RFN. Furthermore, the Mario franchise, platformer genre, and NES console all appear to be over-represented in RFN; there's even two SMB3 runs at the moment.
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Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
Why not [2505] GC Super Smash Bros. Melee "Adventure Mode" by numerics in 10:23.48 or [1955] SNES Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 "playaround" by SDR, Thevlackdemonn2294 & Dark Noob in 30:28.38?
I'd say because there's a lot of Nintendo games on the RFN list, and so far no Capcom/Arcade games.
Also, for a FPS, we have to choose between [2866] DOOM Final Doom "The Plutonia Experiment" by Clumsydoomer in 14:05.96 and [2443] GC 007: Nightfire by gamerfreak5665 & alec kermit in 39:55.45, to replace... SMB walkathon I guess?.
Good point. I'd be happy with either of those.
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UMK3 is a Nintendo game?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
UMK3 is a Nintendo game?
SNES UMK3 is a game on a SNES. Currently more than half of all RFN movies are for the NES or SNES, as compared to none for arcade. Hence my suggestion for an arcade run.
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Personally I find the DOOM speedruns to be nigh-incomprehensible. Understanding those runs (and runs of Wolfenstein, etc.) requires too much familiarity with the source material due to the rapid motion, samey-looking levels, and constant strafe-running. Nightfire still has straferunning, of course, but it's a lot easier for a knowlessman to follow, so it gets my vote.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
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Derakon wrote:
Personally I find the DOOM speedruns to be nigh-incomprehensible. Understanding those runs (and runs of Wolfenstein, etc.) requires too much familiarity with the source material due to the rapid motion, samey-looking levels, and constant strafe-running. Nightfire still has straferunning, of course, but it's a lot easier for a knowlessman to follow, so it gets my vote.
That's a good point. Doom is of historical interest as one of the first games to kickstart the speedrunning community, but that doesn't make it recommended for newcomers.
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Radiant wrote:
That's a good point. Doom is of historical interest as one of the first games to kickstart the speedrunning community, but that doesn't make it recommended for newcomers.
If Super Mario Bros is interesting to newcomers due to its fame and its history, then so is Doom. Everybody knows Doom. Even somebody who has never played a single video game in his life knows Doom. I am of the opinion that ubiquitous fame of the game in question can be reason enough to recommend a speedrun for newcomers, especially if the speedrun itself is of high quality and interesting to watch.
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If a Doom TAS were to be included in the RFN list for the game's notoriety and the nostalgia people have for it, I think it would make more sense to wait for a run of an official release like Doom II that people would recognize, rather than a lesser known WAD like The Plutonia Experiment. That aside, there are two runs on the RFN list that have always stood out as questionable to me: [2078] SNES Super Metroid "reverse boss order" by Saturn in 46:42.38 and [1649] NES Mega Man 2 by aglasscage, finalfighter, pirohiko & Shinryuu in 23:48.51. From what I understand, Super Metroid RBO was included on the basis that a newcomer would be blown away by the concept of a TAS beating the bosses in the reverse order, but since this is something that even RTAers can do, and since most newcomers would likely be privy to this because of the game's popularity at the GDQ marathons, I don't think this fact in and of itself makes the TAS impressive. What does make it impressive to me is all of the item route planning, health management, and constant drop manipulation required to make it through Norfair and Lower Norfair without wasting any time picking up extraneous upgrades earlier in the run. This aspect of the run, though, has significant overlap with one of the other movies in the RFN list in [3216] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow "all souls" by Fz-Last, klmz, Pike in 17:06.41, since that run constantly has to manage mana for Giant Bat zips and manipulate heart drops wherever possible, the same as SM RBO does with health. My rationale for questioning the MM2 TAS being on the list is essentially the same as for SM RBO: its reasons for being there are because it does things that RTAers already do, and that one of the other RFN movies does. The majority of the zips in that run are also done by speedrunners, there are well over a hundred runners who run the categories that allow zips, and the frame windows to execute them are not all that demanding. Compare this to the bat zips in Aria of Sorrow which are at least double frame perfect, triple frame perfect if you do the quick setup, and in some categories will cause a reset if you miss even one of these inputs due to strict mana constraints, and the all souls TAS does way more zips and much more difficult zips than what is possible in real-time. I realize that many newcomers may not be knowledgeable about the intricacies on the difficulty of zips in the two different games, but I think anyone who compares the MM2 TAS to an MM2 RTA side-by-side will two runs that are significantly more similar to each other than AoS TASes and RTAs. And personally, I can hardly tell TAS and RTA apart for the majority of the MM2 run since it's mostly a walkathon, and does almost all of the same zips.
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If a TAS uses techniques that are also possible and used in regular speedruns, is that really a reason to disqualify it from the recommended-for-newcomers category? This makes the assumption that newcomers are already familiar with regular speedruns, and have seen the ones of those games.
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I just meant if that's the sole reason for them being there, and if they do it in a way that can hardly be distinguished from real-time runs. If there are other factors for those runs being on the list then nevermind what I said; this was just my take on it. Even if they aren't familiar with real-time runs and do find it amazing that a TAS can perform certain zips or beat bosses in reverse order, I feel like they would be disillusioned the moment they see the exact same thing done in real-time.
Alyosha
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So, anything happening here? If still looking for ideas, I think Gunstar Heroes would be a good choice to replace warpless walkathon. Exchanging 25 minutes of walking with 31 minutes of action seems like a good trade to me.
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Alyosha wrote:
If still looking for ideas, I think Gunstar Heroes would be a good choice to replace warpless walkathon. Exchanging 25 minutes of walking with 31 minutes of action seems like a good trade to me.
Seconded. And yes, it would be great to see an edit to the RFN list based on this thread. There does appear to be general agreement here.
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moozooh, are you around?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Samsara
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Post in the Anime thread and moozooh will show back up for a couple of days.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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I was told to post here to recommend the new 007: Nightfire TAS to be on the list of movies recommended for newcomers. The old TAS, published in 2013, was really good for its time considering the clipping glitch was still new. But as the years went on, it became more and more obsolete due to new glitches being found and better optimizations being worked on. There were a few speedrunners who actually beat the old TAS due to all the new tricks that had been found since 2013, and that's including the TAS' highly inaccurate load times. The current published 007: Nightfire TAS is almost 10 minutes faster than the previous one when comparing the gameplay only. Newer builds of Dolphin have more accurate loading times. The old TAS was recommended for newcomers so I think it would be a good idea to also recommend the new one since it's a much more optimized run. Current TAS: GC 007: Nightfire (USA) in 33:42.82 by FitterSpace, gamerfreak5665 & aleckermit. Old TAS: GC 007: Nightfire (USA) in 39:55.45 by gamerfreak5665 & aleckermit.
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Derakon wrote:
Personally I find the DOOM speedruns to be nigh-incomprehensible. Understanding those runs (and runs of Wolfenstein, etc.) requires too much familiarity with the source material due to the rapid motion, samey-looking levels, and constant strafe-running. Nightfire still has straferunning, of course, but it's a lot easier for a knowlessman to follow, so it gets my vote.
I find this line of thought extremely important. Anything that is on the recommended list should be showing a game where the viewer who is not familiar with the game should understand the basic idea how the game is played - and then see that vomited upon. It's important that every game chosen establishes the mechanics of play early on so that viewers know what should be expected from the game, not be left wondering the entire time what the heck they are looking at.
Hetfield90 wrote:
I just meant if that's the sole reason for them being there, and if they do it in a way that can hardly be distinguished from real-time runs.
There is no sole reason for any game on the list. Every game that is recommended for newcomers needs to hit upon multiple qualities.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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Both Final DOOM and 007: Nightfire won yearly awards for their platforms, but DOOM's rating is way lower, so I picked 007. We need to do something with Fighting games and Megaman. For an MM2 replacement, we have these: [1894] SNES Mega Man X & Mega Man X2 & Mega Man X3 "300%" by agwawaf in 43:51.02 [3595] NES Rockman 4 Minus Infinity "all items" by Baddap1 in 34:43.72 Note that -infinity had higher entertainment rating for almost all the time, and it's also easier to comprehend. My vote is for -infinity. And I'd replace Gradius with one of these: [2505] GC Super Smash Bros. Melee "Adventure Mode" by numerics in 10:23.48 [1955] SNES Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 "playaround" by SDR, Thevlackdemonn2294 & Dark Noob in 30:28.38 My vote is for absurd funny glitches of UMK3. I'm not picking Marvel x Capcom, because its rating is lower than any of the above. Oh and also we probably need to replace SMB3 warps with something, because the overdose of Mario is quite deadly atm. Maybe with one of these? [1297] SNES EarthBound by pirohiko in 1:10:00.95 [2592] SNES Chrono Trigger by keylie in 2:17:08.86 Finally, what about replacing Sonic with some other Sonic? We've had quite a few new concepts published recently.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.