Post by ALAKTORN

Posted: 7/14/2011 12:04 PM
(Edited: 7/14/2011 12:07 PM)

Post subject: TASVideos movie branch names

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Zeupar

Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament

Several movies are labeled with the "glitched" branch name. As you know, this label is commonly used for movies of games that have more than one movie published on the site, specifically when the author of one them uses all the known useful glitches while the author of another movie forgoes the use of a game-breaking glitch. Labeling the former with a "glitched" implies that the other movie doesn't abuse glitches, which isn't the case in most instances. This is why I propose that the "glitched" branch name be replaced with a "heavily glitched" one. Also, I think that the "low glitch" branch name is too vague and shouldn't be used. As far as I know, only this movie has been labeled with it.

AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!

Posted: 7/14/2011 12:06 PM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

"Low glitch" corresponds to the Forgoes time-saving glitches category, 5 movies in total have it even if they're not all named like that.

Posted: 7/15/2011 6:22 PM

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ais523

Editor, Player (44)

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022

I'd like to see the category name for movies dominated by a single glitch specify the glitch in the category, e.g. DOS NetHack "memory corruption glitch" vs. DOS NetHack "minimum turns, no memory corruption". In practice, there tend to be only two (or three, depending on how you count) sorts of glitch that end up dominating a game enough to require a new category: memory/save corruption glitches, and out-of-bounds glitches that lead to skipping most of the sequence of the game. Instead of "forgoes time-saving glitches" (which ones?), I'd like to see "corrupts memory" and "forgoes memory corruption", "corrupts save data" and "forgoes save data corruption" (we already have these two, so no change is needed there), "goes out of bounds" and "forgoes going out of bounds". A good example of why this sort of thing is necessary is in the Generation I Pokémon games, to distinguish the categories in [1702] GBC Pokémon: Yellow Version "save glitch" by p4wn3r in 01:27.23 (save corruption) from [1700] SGB Pokémon: Red Version "warp glitch" by p4wn3r in 41:02.38 (arbitrary memory corruption) from [950] SGB Pokémon: Blue Version "trainer escape glitch" by primorial_soup in 1:18:58.78 (out-of-bounds). Note that all three of the movies are tagged "heavy glitch abuse"! At the moment, 1700M isn't tagged with a branch name, nor is 1702M, which might leave the viewers wondering why they take such different routes in such similar games. I'd like to see 1702 marked "save corruption glitch", and 1700 marked "memory corruption glitch", to distinguish the branches. (Out-of-bounds is more normal; I personally consider 950 the current "normal" category for Pokémon, and would watch a no-out-of-bounds run as well, although I doubt it would be different enough from the other runs to be interesting and publishable.) I agree with the OP that "glitched" by itself is pretty unclear, especially as it's used inconsistently. Instead of trying to imply "more glitched than" or "less glitched than" or whatever (which will probably depend on the order in which the movies were originally published), why not say exactly what the category actually is? (I also say this because I know there are people who enjoy watching entirely non-glitched TASes; I like both glitched and non-glitched versions, but people who want glitchless runs have a lot more than the runs in the "forgoes time-saving glitches" category to look at, because there are many games with no known major exploitable glitches. (Keeping with the Pokémon example, Pokémon Ruby/Sapphire, while there are a few known glitches, don't have any known ones that save time at the moment. No doubt TASers are working on correcting that, but for the time being, a third-generation Pokémon TAS is going to be glitchless just because that's fastest.)

Posted: 7/17/2011 10:29 PM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Personally, I'd like to see even more categories: 1. Uses RAM/save corruption glitches 2. Uses out-of-bounds glitches 3. Foregoes glitches infeasible in real time We also assume "regular glitches" are used by default, so there's no need to make mention of that. Now, that third category in particular requires some explanation, because it's something new that we haven't talked about all that much. Basically, this would explicitly allow the submissions of movies that forego the use of glitches that real time speedrunners don't use because they're infeasible (such as the zipping trick in MM1, which is so difficult and luck-dependent to pull off that it isn't used). I realize this is a bit controversial, but I think it's a legitimate concept that warrants some thought. The other two seem simple enough. We should probably assume that runs do not use either type 1 or type 2 glitches by default, since most of them don't, and only add the "uses type n glitches" category when it is warranted. EDIT: crossposting this to the right topic. As far as branch names go, they should follow logically from category names, so maybe we should focus on the other topic instead and then come back here when we reach a consensus there. If we go with something like this, then type 1 could be called "RAM glitched", type 2 could be called "glitched" and type 3 could be called "no glitches". That seems reasonable, but it's really a matter of naming.

Posted: 12/26/2011 7:19 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

"glitched" is just a really stupid name. Everything on this site is at least slightly glitched. I think that the fastest run should always be labeled "any%" without any additions to the name. Any% means beating the game as fast as possible. It doesn't have to be explained. Runs that do have to be explained, are those that forego beating the game the fastest way possible. Those need additions like "doesn't use this glitch" or "beats all bosses" or somthing along these lines.

Posted: 12/27/2011 4:20 AM

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Noob_Irdoh

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W

I can see how the "glitched" adjective can be a bit redundant since most (if not all) the movies on this website are glitched at least to some extent, but we should always think about the occasional viewer who doesn't know very much about TASes and stumbles upon one of those movies by chance. It's hard enough to avoid being called cheaters, we might as well warn them in advance that some major glitchfesting is going to happen. On the other hand, "manipulates luck" is a category, and not a branch name. I'm not sure what to think here. In the lack of a better option, the existing system probably isn't that bad.

Posted: 12/27/2011 11:14 AM

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Zeupar

Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament

Noob Irdoh wrote:

I can see how the "glitched" adjective can be a bit redundant since most (if not all) the movies on this website are glitched at least to some extent, but we should always think about the occasional viewer who doesn't know very much about TASes and stumbles upon one of those movies by chance. It's hard enough to avoid being called cheaters, we might as well warn them in advance that some major glitchfesting is going to happen. On the other hand, "manipulates luck" is a category, and not a branch name. I'm not sure what to think here. In the lack of a better option, the existing system probably isn't that bad.

Did you read my proposal before writing your message? Because it would avoid redundancy while still warning newcomers...

AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!

Posted: 12/27/2011 11:52 AM

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Noob_Irdoh

Joined: 6/4/2009
Posts: 570
Location: 33°07'41"S, 160°42'04"W

I admit that my post was more like a direct reply to Slowking, yes. I assumed this was a thread about branches names in general so I didn't read all of it, sorry. Your idea makes sense too, and it wouldn't be any more arbitrary than the current situation (which is already arbitrary). It might be a good idea.

Posted: 12/27/2011 10:24 PM

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Slowking

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 1193

There are a lot of "any%" runs that are not labaled "glitched", yet abuse heavy glitches. For example the OoT TAS where RAM is edited. Ofcourse these runs are in the (category?) "Heavy glitch abuse", but that is where it should stay. It makes no sense to label them "glitched", since one of this sites principle goals is to complete a game as fast as possible. So completing the game as fast as possible shouldn't be something special, which would warrent a special category. It should be the norm. When a TAS doesn't complete the game as fast as possible, that is something out of the ordinary and thus that deserves the special category. Not the other way around. Btw. could this be moved into "general"? Nobody looks in "sites" and it really is more of a general issue than just concerning the sites.

Posted: 12/28/2011 2:47 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

I suppose that at some point the runs that complete a game as fast as possible without glitching the game to an unrecognizable pulp became the "normal" or "main" runs, while the heavily glitched ones became some kind of special category, even though the heavily glitched ones were usually faster. Maybe this could indeed be reversed (ie. the fastest run is the "main" run and all the non-fastest ones are sub-categories). It may be difficult to come up with a short and descriptive name for a run that uses all possible tricks to complete the game as fast as possible except for the extreme game-breaking glitching. ("no-glitch" sounds like it doesn't use any glitches at all, which is seldom the case.)

Posted: 12/28/2011 4:48 PM

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Scepheo

Player (144)

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686

Labelling the runs that forego the heaviest glitches "any%" makes no sense to me too. "Any%" should be "any%", so whichever run is the fastest should get this label. All other runs are the deviant categories. In my opinion.

Posted: 12/28/2011 5:45 PM

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jimsfriend

Former player

Joined: 1/17/2006
Posts: 775
Location: Deign

Pretty huge question here. Where does the site use "any%" as a term to categorize runs? I was able to find it in two places: as a title for a single currently published super metroid run, and in several game descriptions. It seems to me the problem isn't with the category "any%" because it virtually doesn't exist as an official concept on this site. If anything, the problem is with whoever makes movie descriptions on the movie pages where the term shows up several times (and with you people arguing that something that hardly exists is such a huge bad thing for the site). Check the movie categories. No such term. C h e c k t h e m o v i e s pages yourself if you don't believe me. Just to be sure, I also checked for "any %" which doesn't appear at all. Most games that don't have large game communities also don't have a heavily glitched run. The games with heavy memory corruption are usually games with large communities, which I would guess have an expectation for what is the "normal" route through a game. When the go looking at a movie labeled simply as <game name> in <XX:XX>, they are almost certainly expecting the "normal" route. Give it to them.

Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign

Posted: 12/28/2011 7:51 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1637)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

jimsfriend wrote:

Pretty huge question here. Where does the site use "any%" as a term to categorize runs?

The submission page pretty much states that any non-branched movie is assumed to be any%: "Branch name: (e.g. "100%" or "princess only"; "any%" can usually be omitted)" That said, I agree with you. I see the term "glitched" used for movies that meet all of a certain criteria - #1. Uses TAS-only memory and/or save corruption. #2. Cuts out a SIGNIFICANT amount game-play associated with a normal playthrough. Skipping a level here and there is not equivalent. #3. Fundamentally alters the natural flow of the game. That said, people are confusing categories with branch names. We have a page that specifically sorts movies the way Dada was requesting. The reason we don't implement branches such as "Beats Bowser" or such, is that we want all encompassing names for branches. "any%" is a recognizable term. Assume for a moment that you had never played a Mario game. Would you know what "Beats Bowser" means? While that may be rare for Mario games, we want rules that encompass lesser known titles. There can be 3 main branches to any game: * Glitched * any% * 100%

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 12/28/2011 9:35 PM

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Saethori

Joined: 6/26/2011
Posts: 167

DarkKobold wrote:

That said, I agree with you. I see the term "glitched" used for movies that meet all of a certain criteria - #1. Uses TAS-only memory and/or save corruption. #2. Cuts out a SIGNIFICANT amount game-play associated with a normal playthrough. Skipping a level here and there is not equivalent. #3. Fundamentally alters the natural flow of the game.

While I agree whole-heartedly with this definition, the category name is, regrettably, too vague. The term "glitched" merely implies the usage of glitches (or bugs, depending on where you draw a distinction between the two), regardless of whether or not they are used to significantly twist the game. This is especially problematic when you consider that some of the "glitched" runs on the site actually use save corruption instead, which could be argued to not actually be a glitch, by the definition of this site's own glossary, but rather willful destruction of save data by the player. Additionally, some runs are labeled "glitched" because they use certain methods to twist the standard order of the game, but the 'non-glitch' category of the game could also be using glitches as well; just simply in a way that does not match the above definition. (Such as the current Kirby's Adventure run that uses a glitch to keep the UFO power permanently, simply to speed up travel and expedite lag reduction.) The category needs to be renamed for clarity purposes, but that causes its own issue. The misused category name has been around for so long, people are simply used to it and will likely resist change. But as long as it stays the way it is, it will be misinterpreted, because nowhere on the site itself is "glitched" actually clarified to really mean "significantly glitched" or "game-breakingly glitched". And even if it was agreed to be renamed, it would be exceedingly difficult to find a term that is both just as fitting and simplistic as the existing one is, but also less prone to confusion.

First a movie gets submitted, and ends up accepted despite breaking rules other runs have been rejected for. And when I vote less than spectacularly on this movie, I become the victim of harassment and threats. Yay, favoritism.

Posted: 12/29/2011 12:35 AM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1637)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

Saethori wrote:

The term "glitched" merely implies the usage of glitches (or bugs, depending on where you draw a distinction between the two), regardless of whether or not they are used to significantly twist the game.

Actually, I think it does that well. "Glitched" as in, the entire game has been glitched beyond comprehension; not "Uses glitches" which most runs do.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 12/29/2011 12:41 AM

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ais523

Editor, Player (44)

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022

SDA has a tendency to use "large-skip glitches" to distinguish them from the other kind, as a standard category name. I suppose that makes a lot of sense, but they're often more of the sort used in, say, Sonic runs (zipping past an entire level) rather than the completely crazy glitched stuff we get on TASvideos sometimes. (Those glitches generally can't be done on console, so it's hard to know how SDA would categorise them.)

Posted: 12/29/2011 9:15 AM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

Suggestion: Rename the branch name "glitched" to "glitchfest". Sure, it sounds enormously more informal, but is this site even supposed to be all that formal and technical? If possible, make the branch name a link to the glossary entry that explains what it means (or perhaps make it one of those mouseover help texts).

Posted: 12/29/2011 4:57 PM

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ais523

Editor, Player (44)

Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022

A "glitchfest" is something different: it's a run that favours showing off glitches over going quickly. Large-skip-glitch runs don't do that; typically they only use 1 or 2 glitches, that just happen to skip the entire game.

Posted: 12/30/2011 10:14 PM

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SmashManiac

Player (12)

Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 501

I'll copy-paste what I wrote in another thread since it is relevant: In my opinion, there should be no such thing as a "glitched" category in the first place, but rather a "no player-defined restriction" category which should be the default. The existence of any other category by introducing player-defined restrictions should be based on whether or not introducing these restrictions is an interesting goal in itself and if the final result offers something significantly new and/or different from the others, such as "no save data corruption by resetting" or "no wall clipping" for example.

The BIG List of Randomizers

Posted: 12/30/2011 10:35 PM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

This thread is oozing madness. No, really, people here must not be serious suggesting all that.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 12/30/2011 10:36 PM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Player (99)

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

DarkKobold wrote:

Saethori wrote:
The term "glitched" merely implies the usage of glitches (or bugs, depending on where you draw a distinction between the two), regardless of whether or not they are used to significantly twist the game.
Actually, I think it does that well. "Glitched" as in, the entire game has been glitched beyond comprehension; not "Uses glitches" which most runs do.

I agree with everything DarkKobold said using RAM corruption and such to beat a game isn’t the norm, therefore should have a special category

Posted: 12/31/2011 10:12 AM

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Scepheo

Player (144)

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 686

Because I though it to be more relevant to this thread than to MUGG's Kirby run: it was suggested there by CtrlAltDestroy to rename the branch to something like "Prematurely Triggers Ending". As I think this best describes the type of glitching used in this sort of run, I fully support this idea. Although I think "Causes Game to Give Up" would be funnier.

Posted: 12/31/2011 11:02 AM

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

I don't get why at all we need any GLITCH definitions in a branch name. When we just keep glitch abuse as a category, it may contain level skips, but the whole game flow remains relatively normal. While the runs marked as GLITCHED break the whole thing so heavily that you aren't able to understand what's happening anymore, they can cut several levels at once, or stuff like that. Rockman 2010 stands on kinda borderline between heavy glitch abuse as a category and "glitched" branch. If after the first DelayStageClear event we saw credits - it'd definately become "glitched" branch. And there's another side, when the glitches commonly used in a run become way too wild, there can appear a "low glitch" branch, as we saw with Sonic. So, the current situations with branches looks perfect to me.

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 12/31/2011 12:18 PM

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Warp

Banned User, Former player

Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland

SmashManiac wrote:

"no player-defined restriction" category

That's what "any%" currently means, btw.

feos wrote:

I don't get why at all we need any GLITCH definitions in a branch name. [...] So, the current situations with branches looks perfect to me.

I think you lost your thought between your first and last sentences (as they seem to be contradictory). Could you rephrase what you tried to say?