But currently it is just not the case. So I'm speaking in consistency with the current categorization.
That's fine, except that you must understand that the vault wording isn't based on that. Whether that is an error is up for debate, but the meaning of "any%" means fastest completion time at all costs.
As I understand it, "Any%" in the vault means to get to the ending as fast as possible, using any and all available tricks with no holds barred. For numerous games, there may be a run that shows off more of the game and/or follows the original gameplay more with a goal of "Any% but avoiding (this glitch)"; but such runs cannot be in the vault (since the goal isn't plain "any%" or "100%"), they go in Moons (or Star) if they're entertaining enough, and get rejected if they're not.
However, note that "Any%" with no holds barred runs may also be placed in Moons if they're entertaining enough. It's basically goes
(1) "Any%" or "100%" goes into Star/Moons if entertaining (and fits the other criteria of that tier), Vault if not.
(2) Any other goal, such as "avoid glitch X", "playaround", "Low%", goes into Star/Moons if entertaining (and fits the other criteria of that tier) and gets rejected if not (e.g. the "minimum score" and "minimum keypresses" Mario runs).
(3) A run in the Vault gets obsoleted by one that is faster, that's straightforward. For a run in Star/Moons, if a new glitch is found that is faster and equally entertaining, the new run obsoletes the old and also goes in Star/Moons. If a new glitch is found that is less entertaining (e.g. because it just garbles the screen two minutes in and pops in at the endgame) then this could result in two branches: the new run goes in Vault, and the old run remains where it is with the tag "Any% without (that glitch)". So there's room for both the "pretty" run and the "fastest" run.
I think this is the most straightforward and unambiguous interpretation of what the tiers mean. So it strikes me that the "no warp glitch" Takeshi run should be moved to Moon tier.
Looking over the vault I can't find any games off-hand that don't match my suggested description above, other than Takeshi. Note that I'm basing this purely on run subtitles, I haven't watched all vault runs in the past morning :)
For example, there's this run labeled "pacifist", but the description notes that the pacifism doesn't hurt the speed any, so it still qualifies.
Well, since [564] GBC Pokémon: Gold Version by FractalFusion in 2:54:27.15 is still in the vault for some reason, I got points for why it should be obsoleted by the current TAS.
1. "no memory corruption" is an unvaultable goal. Since memory corruption is essential for the run to be fast as possible, this means in terms of speed, a non-memory glitch run would always be slower.
2. "All gyms run branch" can technically be considered 100%, but unfortunately, the movie itself is STILL sub-optimal. Patashu pretty much summarized it all:
Patashu wrote:
It's best described as glitchless, not all gyms.
I'm pretty sure all gyms would get instant victory glitch and bulldoze through the game.
3. The above itself is STILL unvaultable, since according to the gold/silver/crystal thread, a TAS can pretty much manipulate memory and just set the flag for all gym badges + Red beaten.
100% in Pokémon is normally considered full Pokédex, isn't it?
I don't believe 564M is vaultable, anyway, via the definition of the vault. (I disagree with jlun2's point 3, though; glitching a percentage counter to show 100 is not normally considered 100% completion.)
^ And get the diploma as a proof. Then you are supposed to beat the league to go to the credits.
It's impossible to have all items in this game because there are more items than rooms between your bag and your computer.
Is there anyone who really thinks that 564M can be seen as an 100% run? It's clearly an any% run (and thus obsolete). When it was published, it was the fastest-known way to complete the game, and it was published as an any% run. FractalFusion, when he made this run, was not asking the question "How fast can I beat this game while beating every gym, which I reckon counts as 100% completion?" He was asking the question, "How fast can I beat this game?". At the time, these two questions had the same answer, but that didn't make them the same question, and the question is what defines the branch. (The answer is the time in the movie's title.)
By the way, what counts as 100% in an RPG is very controversial. See this thread: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14293
100% in Pokémon is normally considered full Pokédex, isn't it?
I don't believe 564M is vaultable, anyway, via the definition of the vault. (I disagree with jlun2's point 3, though; glitching a percentage counter to show 100 is not normally considered 100% completion.)
Well, is there anyway to get all pokemon in g2 without memory corruption? But on topic, I can see what you mean by memory corruption =/= 100%, but I guess if a 100% run is entertaining enough it could go to moon tier and the memory glitch run be vaulted.
thatguy wrote:
Is there anyone who really thinks that 564M can be seen as an 100% run? It's clearly an any% run (and thus obsolete). When it was published, it was the fastest-known way to complete the game, and it was published as an any% run.
Also, the fact 564M is still counted as a separate run atm might make pokemon g/s/c end up with a similar mess as the G1 pokemon TASes regarding branches. :o
Since this is related:
Why does [1639] SGB Pocket Monsters: Green "warp glitch" by p4wn3r in 04:24.37 get special treatment regarding what's in the vault? I asked, and I get a response basically saying it's in the vault because of "different glitches". How exactly does that even work with "fastest completion time at all costs."? If someone mentions its a different game entirely, isn't Pokemon Green just a version of Pokemon Red? The site even had a RUBY TAS obsolete a Sapphire TAS. Why does this game get special treatment? Is it because of some kind of bias based on popularity?
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jlun2 wrote:
I get a response basically saying it's in the vault because of "different glitches".
Woah, don't put words in my mouth.
I wrote that and I never explicitly wrote that it is in the vault for any particular reason I wrote there.
My thoughts about where it ended up is this:
Spikestuff wrote:
it doesn't have to go to the moon.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Is it because of some kind of bias based on popularity?
That would be an interesting reason. Since if it had enough popularity for that kind of bias, wouldn't be more appropriate as a moon?
I'm just wondering why it's still in the vault. Currently, that makes it pretty much impossible (if not rather hard) to obsolete:
I thought of 2 cases of a new TAS:
1. A new TAS using the same glitch
2. A new TAS using the save glitch
TAS 1 would not be vaultable since it wouldn't be the fastest time by all means. It can go to the moon, but then one can point out that the current rating for it is rather low for it to be mooned.
TAS 2 would likely get a response saying its a completely different glitch, and given how well those are recieved, be branched off to moon as a seperate category.
Also to spikestuff, if it doesn't have to go to the moons, like the topic title mentioned, what is the vault for? If the reasons you stated aren't for staying in the vault, what are they for?
the vault was created so the site can accept technical speedrunning achievements that weren't pretty or interesting,the extra categories weren't part of the cries all over the forum back when vault didn't exist.
What do? I don't know.
Most of these pokemon and metroid runs are pretty retarded even as historical achievements,because some of their possibilities are no longer relevant in any way or more interesting than ones we have in the present day.Glitching in american versions of pokemon may not have all the japanese versions have,but then again,it's no longer needed.I'd say just to obsolete them all and create a historical list of progress(don't we already have one of those) of the game's TASing if you want to,but no longer preserve this movies as if they're anything but history.This is a site for TASWR in my opinion,not TAS history.
you can also use the blasted demo section where we keep things you all love but aren't records in any way,even if interesting on their own
the wise member said:
"I don't see why all the runs can't be merged and published in the same list, for ease of access if nothing else. You could simply add the vault icon, similar to moons or stars and state what it means on the top of the page. That way people know it wasn't as "entertaining" as other movies, but they can still find the games they want relatively easy."
TAS i'm interested:
megaman series: mmbn1 all chips, mmx3 any% psx glitched
fighting games with speed goals in general
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
